Larry Ramdin Reflects on His Year Leading NEHA - ep 44

Larry Ramdin, current President of the National Environmental Health Association (NEHA), returns to Beyond Data Management for a second conversation with host Cameron Garrison.

In this episode, Larry reflects on his year in the elected president role and digs into the core of environmental health practice: understanding cultural differences in food processes, treating education as the primary tool (with regulation as the last resort), and why EH professionals must constantly expand their knowledge across food, housing, pests, water, and more.
Key topics discussed:

A callback to the “Pig Principle” and why cultural competence matters for inspectors nationwide
Hidden operational risks (cardboard glue attracting cockroaches, rodents and car wiring)
Why environmental health is an educational discipline disguised as a regulatory one
Practical examples of teaching operators (pool chemicals, multi-unit bed bug treatment, rodent-proofing landscapes)
Communication skills and NEHA’s comic book on communicating environmental health
Successes and unfinished business from Larry’s presidential year (pillars document, data management, mold guidance, REHS exam prep tools, Colorado incorporation, international partnerships)
The Journal of Environmental Health going fully open-access and online
Empowering early-career practitioners and learning from the next generation
World Environmental Health Day (Sept 26) and claiming EH’s space in public health
Technology and AI as tools that free inspectors to focus on root causes and education
Preview of the NEHA Annual Educational Conference in Kansas City (including free registration for EHAC-accredited students)

Larry shares the note he would leave for future leaders: empower the next generation, share knowledge freely, and believe in the future of the profession.
Resources mentioned:

NEHA communication comic book (link in comments / description once available)
Student free registration details for the NEHA AEC in Kansas City
World Environmental Health Day – September 26

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Hosted by Cameron Garrison.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

This is the Beyond Data Management Podcast powered by HS GovTech. Now here's your host, Cameron Garrison.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome back all across EH Nation. Cameron Garrison here on the Beyond Data Management channel. And we've been uh working to re-schedule this particular second uh conversation we've had on the channel, but uh no stranger to most of you in the audience, Larry Ramden, uh who uh is the current uh elected president of Niha, and we'll talk about that some today as uh kind of the the highlights and kind of what he sees ahead for the next guy as that rotates out every year at the uh AEC, I believe. So Larry, welcome back. Thank you so much for making the time in the uh middle of a busy summer.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Thank you, Cameron. I appreciate um you asking me back to discuss where we've been and where we're going. Um thank you very much again.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Absolutely, my pleasure, man. So um, you know, you told a great story last time um about the uh the pig. I think you dubbed it the pig principle. Um and so what what maybe what I ask you here is the kind of almost like a callback question. Um how have you seen you talked about the hands-on philosophy that needs to evolve uh and also knowing context and and and things like that. Um as you look at the workforce and having been through a year uh in the elected position at Niha, um are we making progress and ensuring inspectors do truly understand the cultural differences of culinary processes and and and and uh because we didn't really m fully dive into that because the story itself was so great. Um so may maybe actually if you want to do a brief recap of that story and then sort of like dive in is like how do we move the ball forward to start making that real in all 3,000 or so health departments around the country?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

Looking back, um of course I come from a different culture initially.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

I was born in the Caribbean and so I was exposed to a different way of doing things. I'm here. There you are, we hear you.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Okay, so yeah, I was exposed to a different way of doing things, and um it's important for us as environmental health practitioners to understand the different cultures um because we live in a very cosmopolitan society in America. When you talk about it, you know, we see different foods that are have influenced us. Um there's uh pastry, and I probably will get crucified for this, um, called pizza that was brought here by our Italian brothers and sisters, and it has become a global food right now. Um, it's universal across um the entire United States. Um, everyone loves pizza, and understanding that, um, I've seen an upsurge in sushi consumption, I've seen an upsurge in a fruit that I grew up with, and when I moved to America in the 90s, no one outside of the small ethnic enclaves knew about mangoes, but it's now become a fruit of choice and a go-to fruit because of its flavor. So um, we as environmental health practitioners have we been there understanding the processes? I believe that we have. Um, we're educating ourselves a lot more on different cultures, different processes, and the different foods, understanding that um in some cultures there's no such thing as undercooked food.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Uh that's so true, right? Like it's uh cooking is in sort of the eye of the beholder of the culture. It's uh interesting. Well, it's good to know that that it is. I I think even the food code is starting to evolve to some of those realities as well. And this may actually tie a little bit to I I think you've written about this. I don't think we really dove into it a lot last time, but the cardboard dust allergen case. Um that one is that one is super interesting. Um tell us a little bit about that one. Um and then maybe I I think that one probably highlights where there's maybe a hidden operational risk or blind spot, right? That um that EH officers and inspectors probably need to be aware of or or or keep an eye out for.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

Well, you know, we as environmental practitioners, we see so much different things. Like um, you're talking about cardboard. The glue in cardboard is a significant attractant for cockroaches. I don't know what is in it, um, but it's there. Um, one of the other ones that I have seen recently is rats and rodents are attracted to car wiring for some reason. So understanding those things and how we can mitigate with our public those challenges that we face is extremely important. So when you look at the environmental health practitioner, we're full-blown scientists, but we're not in any one specific area. So we're not only water quality, we're not only recreational water, we're not only food, we're not only indoor air quality, we're not only um speech quality. And um, so you know, we're all of those and more. So the wide range of knowledge and experience that that environmental health practitioner you see every day, it's probably broader than any other area of practice that you will see.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

It's actually you're right. And you don't learn all of that in school. What's the then what are the attributes if somebody wants to be an inspector or they're younger and getting started, how do you uh sort of order your mind to be able to continually learn and keep up with all that? I mean, it seems to me there's a curiosity, right, that almost is required because there's so much that you're and science evolves. And so what was considered a fact two, three years ago may evolve through new science. That's a lot to keep up with, especially considering there's not necessarily like a formal clearinghouse that just tells you cookie cutter everything you need to know every day.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Absolutely. And you know, number one, your learning does not end on graduation. Actually, it begins. College education really creates that foundation for you and that understanding of what you are going to be meeting when you enter into the work arena, when you enter into facing challenges on a daily basis. That is probably one of the reasons why, that is one of the reasons actually, why I advocated for NIHA to create the community space where we can ask each other because whatever is out there, someone has either seen it or done it before, and they can always advise on it. But be curious, you know. There's some things that we have seen and it's become standard. For example, pasteurization was developed in the 1800s, so too was canning. And those principles remain the same. Um, we understand that good water quality is if you don't have good water quality, sorry, um, it can cause the spread of diseases. John Snow was probably one of the big proponents of that with the research he done he did around cholera in the UK. But as I claim to everyone else, it is not the research that really made the difference. It was actually him removing that handle, taking an action. So we can do the research, but it is us in the environmental health space who actually take the actions to mitigate the impact of diseases within our community.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, because one is an academic exercise, and the other is actually real-world happening in real time, and theories don't fix that, right? It that is it's up to the inspector who's there to intervene and and help correct the course.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Absolutely, absolutely, and that is why it's imperative that as environmental health practitioners into the field that they keep informing themselves. As I said previously, I've been working in this field for over 40 years, and I learn every single day because it's ever evolving, ever changing, and you have to keep up with all new trends. What you saw two years ago, two months ago, two weeks ago, is completely different to what you're going to be seeing today.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Yeah, and then there's the other side of that equation, too, right? Is the the operators and the people that work in these facilities also need to know and be educated. And actually, I thought you touched on it really beautifully the last time we talked. You talked about, I believe it was a pool operator, a certified pool operator, and he was balancing his chemically entirely backwards. And instead of just writing a citation, sticking it in his face, and and going on to your next inspection, you actually took the time to step through the process and actually educate. You didn't assume it was malice, it was education. So you've really I think you've championed this idea your entire career. In fact, I believe you said last time that EH is an educational discipline, I hope I'm quoting you right, disguised as a regulatory one. And uh that's really true, right? And the question though is is that with a lot of times inspectors they'll once they get in it, they're in it for many years, and so at least they're repetitively in the track. But the facilities have such high turnover from food service to public pool management and the department gets really backlogged. Um the how do what are some ways practically that you put the you have to do the regulation, you can't let unsafe conditions be unmarked. But how does an inspector balance that and actually lean into the education part? Because if you mark a violation today but you don't explain the why, you're gonna probably be marking it again the next time you're there and then the next time after that, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Knowledge is empowering. One has to understand that the environmental health practitioner is a scientist. He, as Dr. Dijak said in a recent um blog, he had put out that. You know, we as you local scientists, we are the ones who you can turn to. If there's an issue and you need the information, the environmental health practitioner is not a per se regulator, someone who comes and finds faults. The environmental health practitioner has to inform themselves so that they become a problem solver, an educator. So you just can't walk away and say, fix this. You need to be telling people, okay, these are the ways to fix it. Recently, um, you know, we had discussions with uh multi-unit housing development, and he was saying they had a bed bug problem. And so, okay, we'll get a pest control operator to come in and they would tell the person what they need to do is occupying the unit, and then we'll treat the unit and say, No, but you have to treat any unit that has a party wall with this um unit, and it's understanding the entomology of um bed bugs that they will crawl in between the wall spaces into small spaces, they're very small, they're almost flat, and you have to treat all the spaces. So said, Wow, I didn't even understand that, and I didn't even realize that everyone else is going to be impacted. She said, So if I don't treat, what is gonna happen? The person with the unit that's next to this one, I'm gonna have to have this pest control operator back out here, treating theirs, treating theirs, and then I'd have to treat the unit next to it maybe three weeks later. So if I can take care of this problem and deal with just the unity and contain it, then it's probably gonna be more cost-efficient for us. Um, the people who are living in the apartments will understand why we're doing what we're doing and how we're doing it, and why there's a need for them to do their part because pest control is a three-legged stool. It's the operator, the people who are paying for it, and then the person who is being impacted by it, and what actions they can take to mitigate their concerns.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah, and the bed bugs creep me out. We actually had on the uh the professor from LSU who's a German cockroach and bed bug expert. And uh talk about learning. I learned so much about how resilient they are, but uh you're right, adjacent walls, there's all kinds of things where you think you got them, but you didn't even actually scratch the surface. The other thing that's interesting about what you were just saying is that a lot of times people will see a health inspector is almost like a a form of a of a cop. But this is different. So you know, the if uh you get pulled over for speeding, you know, the officer doesn't really have to explain to you here's how you prevent you, you know how to prevent it next time and keep your foot a little lighter on the gas pedal. But this is complex science, right? And so it's it's just it's not a a true enforcement cut and dry because the why matters.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Because when we go in to whatever situation we go into, we never walk away and say, fix it. We always explain this is why, because we understand that if we don't do that, we will continually be there at that situation, running around in circles because it will continue. But when you teach people why and explain to them what created the issue and the options they have to mitigate that problem, to fix it so it does not reoccur in the future, they are more likely to take an action to support um fixing the problem.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And and also you're a lot more uh solid ground's not right, because anytime you cite an observed code violation, you're on solid ground. But if you've educated, you've taken the time, there are people that just don't care. Then you it's almost like the teaching first, right? And then if this continues to be an issue, then you have no choice but to be more heavy-handed with the regulation because you can't you can't attribute it anymore to no one told you.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

I agree. Being a regulator is not uh first means of resort, it is your last means of resort to get a problem resolved. Because if you educate, as I said, you know, you come in, okay, so this is your problem. This is what we have done. We go into places and we do risk assessment. What is the root cause of this problem? Why is it happening? How can we fix this? What do we need to do to fix it? Spending that extra time walking with someone about around their homes. As just yesterday I was speaking to the manager of a major um housing complex, and he was saying, you know, um, we have mice occasionally. I say, yeah. And in October to April, you're probably gonna see your most activity because in October, that's when mice start looking for their winter homes. So they find nice warm places inside us. So what you want to do in summer is really do your inspection around and seal up all your holes, create, remove all your entry points, look at your bushes. How are you landscaping around your property? Are you creating areas that have dead spots in them that now would support road and harborage? Those are the things that you have to consider. And I never thought that one day I would be a landscape architect, but I am as an environmental health practitioner.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

And it sounds like you're capable of thinking like a mouse during the proper season, too. Exactly. Think like a mouse. Um so you you've put on a lot of miles. You do every year, right? Uh I bumped into you in Long Beach in Bismarck, North Dakota. That was fun. Um But one of the things we were just chatting, uh, believe it was in North Dakota, and you were also the the the the the common uh oversight of well, that's a building department or electrical issue, it has nothing to do with us. Like there is a continuum and things are connected. You were telling me some crazy stories about how people are like stealing electricity or poor wiring, and and uh I think kind of to make a point on it, what what just struck me is the uh the need to continue also having uh tertiary knowledge to know when to bring somebody else in, right? Because all of these other agencies uh work for the same government and uh there's not enough coordination and information sharing, is there, especially is that you see more and more crazy things.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Absolutely. When you look at a municipality, uh someone wants to build a home, so they go to the building department or they go to plump the zoning department and say, okay, yes, your area is zone for residential, so you can put this house there. Now they go to the building department with their architectural plans, they say, okay, here's what you need to do. Um give us our plans, we'll have a discussion with the other departments internally. So you have to supply plans, both plumbing and um electrical have to weigh in on it. We have to look at the impact. If there's a building on the site and you're tearing down that building, it's a health department that has oversight on that. Because where is that dust going to go? Is there asbestos in the unit? Is there lead there? Has the unit been has the home been unoccupied for a significant period of time? Are there pests living in there? Because if we take this down, where are those pests gonna go? So we have the oversight on it. But during the process, we're also ensuring that no one is negatively impacted. Noise, dust are the two things that we pay attention to. What about the building materials that are going in there? Are they safe for the building? I remember we had that issue with um Sinese drywall that was loaded with formaldehyde. And that had to be taken down because of the work that environmental health practitioners did. So you're not creating significant risk for the occupants post-construction. But when that happens, everyone leaves, right? The building department is gone because they made sure that the load bearing rate on the central beams can take care of everything. All the electrical is wired properly, the plumbing is sufficient for the amount of people living in the homes. And then there's an issue. Who are they gonna call? They call the ghostbusters of life, the environmental health department. Yeah, I I say that all the time. If something goes wrong in your neighborhood, who are you gonna call? You're gonna call environmental health, you're gonna call public health, because we are the ones who you know can fix it.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

What is what are barriers that keep the Ghostbusters? I love that. You should make a bumper sticker. Um the but what are the what holds back that sort of open sharing? Is it access to data? Is it everybody's too busy and understaffed? Like, because I know sometimes the Ghostbusters get called a little bit late in some instances, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Multifactor. So one is on the Laughing yes. Two, it's regulatory focus. But three, it's really also silos within government. So everyone sees just what they do, and that is important to them. So they're not looking at the big picture issues in it. So as long as I've done mine, I'm gone on to the next thing. But we as environmental health practitioners are not afforded that luxury because everything is ours. Where they're going to put their trash out. Yes, DPW have the contracts to collect trash, but is that trash being stored properly? Is it creating avenues for rodent harbor? Is it creating food for rodents? Is that trash bin secure so that our um neighborhood wildlife aren't getting to it? I saw recently a picture locally where a raccoon was coming out of someone's trash can because they had left the lid open. So looking at those things and then all that trash spreads around the neighborhood and it impacts your quality of life. So environmental health not only affects your health, but it affects your quality of life, which has a secondary impact on your health. So we are not only looking at the direct causation of disease, but also the secondary causes of disease. And we're looking at chronic diseases and how we as environmental health practitioners can lower the impact of chronic disease within our community, especially stressors. And you know, looking at the um social determinants of health is a key driving factor in how we're looking at those things now.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

It's just such a broad topic. And I think what you described of uh of well, we've done our part, check the box and left, that's a checklist mentality, which is the opposite of really what environmental health practiced right is. It's the opposite of a checklist, really, isn't it? I mean, you need checklists, but it's not just a mindless activity.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

No, no, no. You you need to have that knowledge base, you have the have the ability to convey that information not in a scientific manner, but in a manner in which the receiver is able to understand what you're saying. And you have during your communication, you have to really um validate that your message is being received in the way that you want it to be received. So if it is not, and there is misunderstanding, you have to clarify with the receiver that this is what I am actually saying, and this is the actions that you need to take to assist yourself. And this is how we can help you to do that. So now not only are we scientists, but we're also communicators. Communication is a science. Our immediate past president is um now Captain Anna Khan of the CDC, she's communications director there in one of the offices, and spends a lot of time and has provided a lot of resources. And we at Niha too have um provided the comic book on communicating because we as environmental health practitioners need to have good communication sites. When you go in to do an inspection, if you want to explain the inspection, you have to start with building that relationship from the time you walk in the door and not create conflict. Uh respect the person whom you're at inspecting their place and explain, they may want things done differently. You have to explain to them why it cannot be done, especially in housing. Well, you know, I want this done, I want that done. Well, that is not something that is a civil issue, it's not a regulatory issue, and you explain to them why it's a civil issue versus what is a regulatory issue, and then you reach out to the people who are responsible for fixing the problems in terms and you talk with them and say, this is the challenge, and this is why it happened, and these are the options you can take to do it. So, really being that effective communicator is another one of the requirements for being an environmental health practitioner.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Do you so right? And that you're talking about when you hand it off or bring in somebody else. Do you think that there's a well-developed enough path uh between EH and uh building that you can name multiple, but buildings come up a couple of times? I'm sure there's some agencies where an inspector may not be sure who to even immediately call. Um have we done a good enough job sort of socializing in this instance here's the expert you need to call in for a consult, or here's who regulates it. Is that is that well enough defined, you think? Because I know just personally there's department situations around the country where I'm not sure everybody would even know who their go-to is in that situation.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

It's not as clearly defined as it can be. But what I can say is that people are not bumped around when they reach us in environmental health practice. What we do is say, okay, so this is your problem. We can look into it. And if it is someone else's responsibility, we will reach out to them instead of having you doing the whole town hall loop or the whole county hall loop.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's that you know, you press you end up pressing zero or saying operator frustratedly because you're not sure where you're going. Did you also say to track back a second, that I I don't think I realized this. Uh, did Niha release the comic book on communication? Absolutely. Really? So where can how do people find that? And we we can you can get it to me after the show and we'll put it in the description. Is that like online? Is it something they order?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

So online on our website on our web page.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Oh, excellent. That is that's fun because again, you're doing it in a way that isn't like a boring operations manual.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Exactly. Exactly. And the the graphics on it are really good, but it not only talks about how to communicate with your community, it looks at many different scenarios. For example, if you want to celebrate a day, how do you go out, who do you reach out to to get a proclamation? How do you write a proclamation? Because most times you go out there, how do you communicate with your press? Who are the people you need to identify? Having your points laid out ahead of time so that when you're communicating, you can share those points with um people. I mean, so that is um it it provides one with a lot of tools to communicate.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

That is cool. Raising the environmental health voice, a comic universe of communication strategies. I I found it. That is correct. That is genius. We'll put a um a link to that in the description. This is I I don't know how I didn't know, but I did. And it it's actually you've got a section, it looks like I'm talking to the media. Elevator oh, David, always the best. It's right there if you can see it, Larry. We're flipping through it. I love that. Um, that is really, really cool. Um simplifying your environmental health message. How long has that been out? Me sitting here stunned. I I I somehow didn't know this.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

This has been out pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Wow. This is what a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Probably about 2018, 2019.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Really smart. If if if there's any of you all out there who like me somehow had just uh missed this, um, we'll put the link down in the description. Uh go check that out. That looks really cool. I know I'm going to. So that niha, that gets us sort of into um you are at the tail end. Was it a fast year for you? Uh so you've been like what 11, 10, 11 months now since you uh took the elected president role. Um and just curious, sort of, your reflections on that year, kind of maybe like the the highlights, uh maybe what you think is unfinished business that you would charge future leaders to to dig in on. What's uh what's describe the year and how how it's been and and your highs and lows. So it's been a whirlwind.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

So let's talk about the highs. Or maybe I can say it's easier to finish on the highs. Um I guess one of my disappointments with myself is that we were unable to connect a more connect establish effective um communications with um municipal and state leadership. Um for many reasons that was never reality, and that for me is probably my biggest disappointment. Um, but there were many successes, which I can talk about. The first off is as I became president, we had released the Pillars document, the very first document that described environmental health practice. And it was fantastic, it's being used across the states. In fact, um, many of our international partners um have looked at it and said, while it is built for America, it but it does not address only what we do in America. What it does, it addresses the environmental health practice itself. And I think that is really key to its success. We produced a document on data management and um utilization of data. We also produced another document on recently released on mold. And so we producing these things, um, one of the other things we did is we created an asynchronous learning tool for people who are preparing for the registered environmental health specialist, registered sanitarian exam. Um, so those are really good things. The big thing in a couple of weeks we're heading out to Denver, and we were incorporated in California, um, but moved our offices in the 50s to Colorado. But we had maintained our incorporation. Good sense and good practice says that you should really actually be incorporated in your state of business. So we are going to be moving our incorporation from California to Colorado within the next couple of weeks. Um wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

That's a that's a actually a big, especially from just the structured legal change. That's that's a task.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Oh, absolutely. And um, you know, the entire thing, it it was painstaking. It was probably watching grass grow was probably easier than this process. But you know, Kelsey Lyon, our chief operations officer, um, has done such a fantastic job leaning that entire project that you know we um we're at the finish line right now, and uh we're going to get there.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

That's a big list of accomplishments. Um that's a lot. And you don't have to uh dish uh you know inside super secret information, but on the one uh such a long list of things you've done in a year, most people wouldn't get that done in a year. But you mentioned that there was the the communication opening up with state and other leadership. What were what were some of the general blockers that make that maybe a longer lift than a short sprint?

SPEAKER_02 35:05

It's a new area for us, Sam. Remember that most of our practice is engaged with local and state officials. Many of them do not have a real appreciation of environmental health. But you can ask people to come and speak and talk to them, but if they're not willing to hear you and or give you the time to educate them, then it presents a challenge. So we're not done with that. It's just that it did not happen this year. We will continue. Um, the efforts will move forward, and um hopefully we will have better traction in the upcoming year. I think one of the things that I am particularly proud of is that we were able to better reopen connections with our international partners, um, the Chartered Institute of Environmental Health in the UK, um, which is England, Scotland, and Wales, um, the Registered Environmental Health Institute in Scotland. Um, we're able to open up partnerships. We're continuing our partnerships with Canada. Um, we're looking to expand beyond our borders. As you know, um, the Journal of Environmental Health is um published now in Spanish, so um it's available to many of the Spanish-speaking world, and it's all free. It's and we just decided that um the Journal of Environmental Health, my um last the May Journal of Environmental Health was the last print issue. It's gonna be totally online and it's open source. So anyone can access it from anywhere in the world at any time.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Yeah, I thought that was a really good move, and also like you can be more responsive in your content all the way up sort of to the published date, right? Because there's so many um restrictions in in print where you have to hit hit hit a deadline and then it's like eight weeks old by the time it goes. Um I thought that was a really, really smart move, and everybody's moved online anyway. Um when you what did you learn? Or what maybe a better way to put it is I mean, you you are um a fixture in in environmental health, and you're not going anywhere after the next year. It's not like you're walking off into the sunset. But is there anything over the year that was eye-opening for you, or you feel like that you learned or gained a deeper insight on that maybe even with all of your decades of experience prior, you you took a new insight from?

SPEAKER_02 37:57

I think um building partnerships within public health itself and highlighting that there are two real facets within greater public health. So there is clinical health, which is treatment, the treatment side, and then there's a preventative side. We lead in the preventative areas, we're not people who will go and fix bones or treat illnesses, but we are in the areas where we will prevent and gaining more respect and building more partnerships with that and how we're appreciated or in some areas and underappreciated in many. Because you know, we sit around the campfire and we talk about our values and but really understanding are we really valued out there? And if not, what can we do to do that? And I think that is one of the reasons when I went to North Dakota, I asked them, so what do you want me to talk about? Do you want me to do the Niha Dog and Pony Show, or do you want me to talk about something else? And he said, Larry, can you talk about environmental health within the public health practice area and the values we bring to the table? And that was eye-opening because that is I've heard that from many different practitioners that we need to champion our cause more.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah, you and step out of the shadows, right? And actually like claim your claim what's yours.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah, and remember that was um one of my um, I think in my September column, it's claim your space. And and that segues into on September 26th, we're going to be celebrating World Environmental Health Day. This year's team is the Environmental Health Professional as a scientist, and reaching out to your community, creating that value and explaining what you actually do, letting people know the reason why you can take an action is because environmental health is there in the background, protecting you.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Yep, and and it's not, and I think it's even more important in the current media culture because everybody's addicted to short clips, attention uh span is and is shorter, and attention is the coin of the realm. If you're not speaking up for yourself and claiming your ground, you're gonna get lost, right? Like I think it's worse now than it's ever been. Oh, absolutely. And so there's a tradition, although we live in interesting times, it's probably been broken over the last few years, but um it used to be a tradition that uh as inauguration day happens, the president of the United States regardless of how nasty the campaign was, there's a note that gets left in the drawer. What would your you know uh note theoretically be when the next guy comes in to the ser uh from the ceremonial pomp and the title? You're still gonna be there, obviously. But what would your note be? What would you charge the the maybe not even the next one, but the next several, the next generation that has to take up this charge? What would be in that note from current leader to future leader?

SPEAKER_02 41:36

I think the main theme is empowering environmental health and working around that team. I think we undervalue the early practitioners to a large degree because sometimes seasoned practitioners look down at them and say, Well, they don't know what they're talking about. You know what was surprising for me is learning from early career practitioners, understanding where the future of this profession is going, what their wants, what their needs are. How can we change the dynamics of what we're doing and take these, move these people forward so that we are still in a good place? Yeah, I started out with carbon paper and pen. Right now, your company has brought us to a place where you walk in with you can walk in with your phone or with a tablet and do your inspections. Everything is on it. Sometimes you don't even have to go into the office, you can go directly from home into your first assignment because everything is there on your phone and you can conduct your inspections on it. I mean, I was laughed at. You still have a camera, you're still listening to CDs and you have an iPod. I do too. Your phone can do all those things for you. You you have one too, you know? And iPhone is more powerful, as I said, than my first computer.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

In fact, our the average iPhone in our pocket is more compute power than the Apollo 11 mission did or and the first uh the trips to the moon. Um and with AI now, the inspector will have to not cram and remember as much like uh past factual data, because it can literally just pop up and say you've marked this three times in the last five inspections. And I I my hope is is that that use of the technology frees up the inspector to actually put their brain power on the the everything you've been talking about today, which is to really get down to root causes and educate. Because they're not tied down with all the data entry tasks and having to like remember the last inspection. Uh that continuity is delivered for them in the palm of their hand, and now they can actually do what you're talking about.

unknown 44:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

And that's what, you know, embracing the technology, embracing the change. Right? But using it properly too. Right? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

Yeah. And especially as new technology is a very important thing.

SPEAKER_02 44:28

It's a great tool, but it's not a replacement for your brain. Your brain probably has is always going to have more information than your AI tool and your computer.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

And if you use it well, the thing I've learned is to my own usage is if you turn your brain on, you actually can direct it better with the prompts and actually get more meaningful info. The human in the loop is kind of a catchphrase now with AI, but it's it's a real thing, especially in this profession. Like this is just again, it's not a checklist that a computer can just amalgamate and and and it be acceptable.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

But believe in believing in the future. We're in good hands, but believing in the future. And as I said previously, you know, empowering the new generation. Um let them be believe in themselves too. And their development is gonna come easier if they also believe in themselves. It's about giving that hand up, it's not about protecting yourselves. I believe in my first um podcast, I said, you know, one of the strangest things for me was when I moved here, I was being told, don't share your information. And I found that to be a bunch of crock. I I think that, as I said then, information is useless unless we share it. How do we expect a new generation to prosper if we don't prepare them well for it?

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Mm-hmm. And there's so many human quirks uh that tie into that, right? You're afraid that if you share too much, they might like eclipse you. There's just so many things that just are human. It's in every profession, sports, uh anything. Um but it's not really a risk. And I think the AI revolution is proving that information actually wants to be free, to your point. Exactly. And it's worthless if it's not available to the general population.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

So absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:31

I, you know, so we're going to Kansas City uh first week of August, and it's your conference, right? It's the sort of this year. Um anything you want to you know talk about, give people a peek of what you're really excited about and and kind of what to look forward to in KC besides barbecue.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Well, there's so many different tracks that we're having. Um, I don't have the exact numbers, um, but I know it's greater than 15 individual tracks that we're having. Um the information that one gains from this is cutting edge. Right. I remember a couple of years ago, I wasn't even thinking about microplastics. And it's a thing. Right? Who is thinking about that then? And this year we're having many great speakers. I was thrilled when I went to the charter, the Canadian Institute of Public Health Inspectors, and heard a presentation by one of our keynotes on the impact of air quality on chronic disease and the relationships for environmental health and the actions that environmental health practitioners can take in mitigating this. Chronic disease, we never thought that we would have a space in chronic disease prevention, right? We do. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Yeah, the mandate and the scope is is much broader than it meets the eye.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

And beyond that, there's always the AEC is probably one of the best networking experiences that you will ever have. Um, for early practitioners, you will get mentors. Right now, we have offered to every student who is in an EAC accredited school free registration for our conference.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Free registration.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

That that really that puts your money where your mouth is about wanting to expand the tent and bring the next generation in. I didn't know that. That's really awesome.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Yeah, and Dr. Dijack and others are reaching out to the different programs to ensure that the students are aware of this opportunity. And it doesn't, it's not only um in person, but there's also virtual registration. So, but if you can't make it to Kansas City, you can always get a free virtual registration if you're a student at an EHAC accredited school.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

That is amazing. And I think is it open this year virtual for a registration fee to people that maybe don't have the travel budget to be in Kansas City, or is that just exclusive to students uh being able to exclusive to eHAC students? Okay, okay. That's if you uh if you haven't registered yet, I think they'll still take registrations. You if you're not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 49:45

Oh, we're taking registrations up to the day before you can walk in and register. The cost is gonna be different, but be there.

SPEAKER_00 49:53

You get be there. And um, you know, we are gonna be setting up the uh podcast studio again in the exhibit hall. So I really hope that maybe if you find a few minutes, I know you're gonna be super busy. Um, but if you find a few minutes, I hope you'll stop by and and talk to us about how it's going and maybe we can just chit-chat and have some fun on the exhibit hall in a in a shorter form.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

Well, absolutely stop by. I I know it's gonna be crazy busy for me, but I would ensure that I have a few minutes to stop by. I will be stopping by to say thank you for being there, but I will also make time in my agenda to um stop by and chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 50:32

That means a lot, and and I know the audience will have to hear from you. Your first episode was one of the um one of the more broad, brightly viewed uh of the quarter it was released in. So like you you are, I think it's because you're just so authentic. You you you lead by example, you're you're authentic, you're passionate, and um it's attracting people. I've had multiple people mention that first conversation to me. So what you're doing is working. Uh you're winning hearts and minds.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Thank you very much for that. Um, you know, you always think to try and do the best you can. Um again, I'll go back to the quote that I grew up on professionally when I was in college. Um, and it's from Dale Carnegie, but our professor used to repeat it every day. I shall pass this way but once, whatever good I can do, let me do it now, for I shall not pass the way this way again. And doing good, helping, assisting, that is what we as environmental health practitioners do. Extending that hand up, sharing our knowledge with others. That is who we are. We're not the scientists who sit in a lab, but we're the scientists, we're field scientists out there doing it and using scientific principles to impact, to have positive impacts on health. And it's being done directly. You know, we talked about that um guy with the pool, and teaching him how to balance his pool properly to make sure that people who come to swim in that pool are not negatively impacted, have rashes, burns, uh, some disease from the water as a result. We have direct impact.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

That is, I I think it would be inappropriate to uh step on that really beautiful summary that you just gave there because um it's really it gets to the heart of it. And and and again the mission that uh people like you you're not acting, you're not doing it for the paycheck. You're doing it because you care, you're doing it for the mission, and um I really I look forward to catching up with you in Kansas City and uh and we'll uh we'll do a quick chat. Uh we won't type too much of your time, but we'll do a quick chat and uh have some fun there at the mobile studio as well. Larry, thank you so much. Um I I appreciate you and thank you for everything you've done for for the community and for how hard you've pushed this past year. You've got some sleep to catch up on. Thank you very much, Cameron. It's been a pleasure. Yes, sir. We'll see you in Kansas City, my friend. Take care. Larry Ramden. President Current of Niha, and uh look forward to seeing a lot of you all out there at Niha. Quick note as we end here, so below you'll find in this description the comic book that we put on the screen that Larry was talking about. I may be the only person in the community that missed that somehow, but we'll put that down there uh along with uh the some of the information about students, and we'll get the links in there for people that want to get more information on some of the things Larry mentioned. Don't forget, like and subscribe, it really helps. Thank you to all of you all that did, and for all of us here at the Beyond Data Management Podcast, powered by HSGov Tech. I'm Cameron Garrison, and we will see you again next Tuesday.