Beyond Data Management Podcast
The definitive podcast for government data management and stories from the field - with a special focus on Environment Health professionals.
Beyond Data Management Podcast
The Device That Lights Up Contaminated Hands — Path Spot Founder Christine Schindler
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What if a device mounted next to a handwashing sink could instantly scan for E. coli, Salmonella, Norovirus, Listeria and other invisible threats — then coach teams in real time and feed the data straight to management?
In this episode of Beyond Data Management (powered by HS GovTech), host Cameron Garrison sits down with Christine Schindler, Founder & CEO of Path Spot, for a deep dive into one of the most innovative hardware + AI platforms in food safety.
Christine shares:
• The wild origin story — soldering prototypes in her apartment (and the occasional electrocution)
• How spectral imaging + AI turns handwashing from “hope and a sign” into measurable, coachable behavior
• Scaling to 10,000+ locations and what the data actually shows about frequency + quality of handwashes
• Expanding from hygiene into temperature monitoring, expiration control, digital checklists… and now AI-powered continuous auditing that could replace performative third-party audits
• Her journey from Duke biomedical engineering + Girls Engineering Change to building real hardware that lives in the chaos of commercial kitchens
• Why the pandemic was a tailwind, the loneliness of the founder journey, and what’s next as AI finally makes continuous food-safety culture possible
This is the conversation every regulator, operator, and food-safety professional needs to hear. Path Spot isn’t just another tech gadget — it’s changing the daily reality of kitchens and the future of how we measure and improve food safety culture.
If you work in environmental health, restaurant operations, grocery, hospitality, or food manufacturing… this one’s for you.
🔗 Learn more about Path Spot and the tech discussed in the episode pathspottech.com
Check out AFDO's new AI for regulatory professionals - Wiley
afdo.com/askwiley
#FoodSafety #PathSpot #HandHygiene #AIinFoodSafety #BeyondDataManagement #HSGovTech #RestaurantTech #PublicHealth #ChristineSchindler
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This is the Beyond Data Management Podcast powered by HS GovTech. Now here's your host, Cameron Garrison.
SPEAKER_04Welcome back. Dog Days of Summer, all across EH Nation. Welcome back. Thanks for joining us again today. And uh the IQ of this show in this studio is about to take a big jump up. Been really excited for this conversation today. Christine Schindler, who is the founder and CEO of Pathspot. And if you haven't heard about them in the regulatory community, it's way past time that you did doing some really innovative things, but I'm sure a lot of you all are aware of them, and you'll say, Oh, I've heard about that. So, welcoming in Christine Schindler to the studio here. How are you? Thanks for making the time to do this. I know you're all over the country and the world traveling these days.
SPEAKER_02I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for thank you for having me on the pod.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely. So the first time I met you actually was uh in Columbus, Ohio. We were on the AI workshop panel together there in Columbus at AFTO, and I had I had you know I had actually seen in the media you get really good PR, which is like really important to be able to build a business. And I had seen the original device that you had put out there, but had never met you and and and heard the story as thoroughly. So I've been looking forward to this ever since we uh bumped into each other there.
SPEAKER_03It was such a fantastic year at AFTO this year, and I I loved the opportunity to be on that panel with you and so many other experts in the industry. I feel like there was just magic coming out of that session.
SPEAKER_04It really did go well. It was a first for them, right? So you don't know like, is it going to be a great idea conceptually and then drag? It was really great. Like four o'clock in the afternoon came really fast for an all-day session.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. And and and I mean everyone there was so energized and engaged to talk about what AI look like in this next generation and how are we embedding that into our ecosystems? It it really created a huge networking effect going into the rest of the afto event. But it was great to be there with you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I think we may be there again next year. I think they're working on what the repeat is going to be, so that'll be a lot of fun. You though, you you didn't necessarily choose the easy path, right? So I I have a just a natural affection for entrepreneurs and builders. I I started my first company when I was 19 years old. And I had no idea what I was doing. I I realize that now. I didn't think I didn't at the time. But um but a lot of most of the things I've been involved in are X's and O's, right? It's code in the digital world. And uh there is a uh easy, a much easier path to build a business that way. You chose actual real tangible products in the world and uh hardware. I saw Elon Musk was saying recently in an interview that all of these uh whizbang entrepreneurs that are used to dealing in code to build their businesses are about to get a brutal lesson in the realities of infrastructure and uh hardware, especially with AI. You didn't go for an easy app, did you? You dell us about what your first thing is and how you actually got there, because it's not like something that everybody's aware of and has a passion to go fix. But tell us about that journey and that first product. I have so many questions about engineering something in the real world. I think you said once that you had a few occasional electrocutions in your apartment dining room because you actually built something.
SPEAKER_03Lots of soldering as as I was building these initial and earliest versions. But I I love working in the physical world and actually being able to create something that combines software and data and analytics into a tangible infrastructural change for an operation, something that you literally install on a wall. I think that's one of the ways that you can create the biggest impact and stickiness and change for how people are actually doing their day-to-day operation. And there is something really special about watching something that that was in your brain actually get installed physically on a restaurant's wall. I remember the first time that, uh the very first time that a restaurant operator was like, yeah, let's let's put this up. And I'm like, we're gonna just hang it on the wall right here. Like, that's crazy. And now it's such an honor to have that be in, you know, over 10,000 operations across the world.
SPEAKER_04Wow, there's 10,000 of them out there on the on the street. So actually, I don't know if we should do this now or later, but I actually have about a minute and 20 second clip from CNN that I think really showed this thing in action. Is it better for you to play that up front and then you can explain the journey, or do you want to do that a little bit later? Let's do it. Let's roll it. So this is this is the hand washing device. So if you want to just set it up, Pathspot's original flagship product, what was it sort of in a nutshell? And then we'll look at it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so so my uh background is in biomedical engineering and global and public health. And I realized that there was this gap between healthcare products that exist today in our healthcare ecosystems, but could make real benefit in day-to-day life and in public health applications. For example, within foodborne illness. You know, you see these instances all over the news, people getting incredibly sick, um, hospitalizations, I mean, even deaths in horrible, tragic cases, and the impact that has on businesses. And we know where this contamination gets into our operations, right? It's very clearly from core areas of operational infrastructure, whether that's hand washing and hygiene, temperature control, expiration management, um, daily tasks around cleanliness. And hygiene is actually the number one driver of foodborne illness in our ecosystem. And when I realized that, I thought, it's crazy that the best practice solution we have is the sign that says wash your hands before returning to work. Like it feels like we should be able to do better. We're carrying computers in our pockets, right? Um, and so that's what really inspired me to create our flagship product of the hand scanner. And it's a device that mounts on the wall next to a hand washing sink in the back of house of restaurants, grocery stores, cafeterias, hotels. I mean, anywhere where food is handled, stored, or served. And right after a team member washes their hands, they put them underneath the device. And it's instantly checking for invisible contaminants that could make someone sick, you know, the host vectors behind those most common foodborne illnesses like E. coli, salmonella, neurovirus, hepe, listeria, the things you see on the news. And then it's real-time coaching the teams around hand washing and hygiene behavior. You know, how often are we washing our hands, how well are we washing our hands, and how does this build back to driving real operational procedure change?
SPEAKER_04That is it's it's it's it almost looks like voodoo. It's so futuristic. So we'll show you the clip here. It actually is a really nice demonstration of what it does, and then we can get into what you can talk about. Uh don't want you to get patent secrets, but uh about how on earth you took it from a concept to work. So let's roll that clip, David.
SPEAKER_01Developed by New York-based PathSaw. The device scans employees' hands for contamination each time they wash and can detect gut biome molecules in just seconds.
SPEAKER_00And this is what you should do. You need to get in the cracks, in these little crevices here, inside the palm, and then nails it, especially, is where we see a lot of times uh people miss rinsing properly. Turn it off. And then you come over to the hand scanner, put your hands underneath, it'll let you know exactly when to flip. And then it'll let you know you're back.
SPEAKER_03That data flow then translates back to management teams. So they're able to see in real time are we hitting our required hand washes? If we had a spike in hand washing contaminations, what actually caused that?
SPEAKER_00When you come here and you go to scanned activity, it's gonna let me know how many times each day they're washing their hands. It'll let me know how successful they are here. All the systems combine help us just monitor everything and make sure everything's working properly. And it allows us not to be in the store all the time and be able to monitor it without being actually physically present.
SPEAKER_01While that might sound like micromanaging, the CDC has found that in the past, restaurant employees are more likely to properly wash their hands when managers emphasize its importance.
SPEAKER_00Our team members can wash their hands for 20 seconds, but we can find out where they're missing and coach our team on how to do better.
SPEAKER_04Wow. So I'm just gonna give the folks who are working environmental health out there who hadn't seen this before a minute to kind of like pick their jaw back up. So I mean it's like literally like it lights their hands up and what's it picking up? Like that is amazing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so it's using visible light fluorescent spectral imaging and it's autofluorescing those invisible contaminants that are the most common carriers of these foodborne illnesses. And each of these has a unique signature pattern that our algorithms are able to pick up based on how that light interacts with those contaminations. And the exciting thing about that is not only are we capturing, you know, is there contamination or is there not contamination, we're also capturing this most common contamination. And so you can actually also see if it's, you know, here, for example, maybe that's from a broom handle because of how that might have been contaminated. Or if it's here, you know, maybe that's from a tablet strap. And so by identifying the patterns of the most common contaminant carriers and then using, you know, that data set to be able to identify where they might be from, a training suddenly becomes a lot more cohesive and effective for a location. So instead of saying, you gotta wash your hands once every hour for 20 seconds, you know, it's important. Now we're changing that narrative to say, hey, team, listen, we're missing hand washes during the lunch rush. We need to really make sure we wash our hands between the hours of 12 and 2. And also, look, we're getting contamination again and again in our location on our fingernails. I know we've talked about fake nails here and why they're important. We need to really make sure that we're that we're washing and scrubbing our fingernails and not wearing, you know, fake nails or or um nail polish that may get contamination into the crevices. And what do you know? You know, contamination goes down, hand washing rates go up because it's actionable. I think everyone in a restaurant environment wants to do the right thing. There's just so many things pulling them into different directions. And so how we give them real-time tangible data that can help drive these results is is really important.
SPEAKER_04You so like the audacity to step forward on this, right? Because there was no comparable data, right, to know how your market would respond to this, was there? Like the how much of a leap of faith was it? Because this just you, it's a new category. And how do you even compare it to know whether or not it's going to repay the investment?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard when you're coming in something and people are like, all we have is a sign, or all we have is a hope. Um, but I think the more you talk to people in the industry, right? And when when we are getting started on this, and I was, you know, knocking on doors of restaurants every night and weekend asking people, you know, everyone said, I've waited 10 years for something like this to exist. This is the thing that keeps me up at night. I have nothing to benchmark against this. And I think, you know, that's the type of thing that gets me really energized. How are we utilizing technology and tools to reinforce the SOPs and policies that people have already put so much time into? We don't want to reinvent the wheel. We just want to create tools that help us to be able to drive that wheel forward and actually make sure it's implemented and encouraged. And I think when that happens, it's it's really magical to see the impact that creates inside of an operational environment.
SPEAKER_04Quick break here to introduce Wiley from our friends at AFTO. Need answers fast? Wiley helps you find guidance, training, contact information, subject matter experts, and AFTO resources in seconds powered by AI. It can also help draft checklists, SOPs, training plans, action plans, webinar summaries, and even approval of emails for your supervisor. Whether you're in the office, in the field, or preparing for your next training, Wiley is there to help you spend less time researching and more time getting things done. Learn more at afto.org askwily. It's a brave new world of AI, and afto's leading the way with Wiley. Afto.org ask Wiley or scan the QR code on the screen. I'd have to imagine the hand washing and the quality of it goes up when there's one of these devices, right? Because you're right. If you're like wash your hands every hour, it's important. Okay, fine, but you have no verification on that, right? And there's no one checking whether they did it for five seconds or twenty seconds and did a good job. Is the fact that actually you have to kind of pass a test afterwards? Are you seeing that it improves frequency and quality of the actual washing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Those are the two core metrics that we that we really identify. You know, how are we increasing the quality and the frequency of hand washes? And then combining that with how are we driving trainings and up-leveling the overall um skill of the team around hygiene behaviors? Because you also find that, you know, hand washing is a very unifying factor. Everyone has to do it. Doesn't matter what your role is in a food operational environment, you will not find a role that is not required to wash their hands. And so you can actually leverage this to really drive food safety culture and to reward and incentivize against it in a way that was never possible before. Um, if you think about it from that direction, you know, when you can create ways to reward uh around certain things, metrics, that's what really creates emphasis around it. And before there was no way you could reward against hygiene behavior or personal hygiene because there was no data around it. So now you'll see locations running trainings or or gamifying it or doing uh competitions across stores for hygiene behavior and seeing how that up levels the culture across the board.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. So does it does dude is there any logging that they have to do? So, like, does it know that Cameron washed his hands uh or or is it logging all of them in sort of master?
SPEAKER_03It it really depends on on the way the infrastructure of the brand is set up. Um so certain certain brands at locations do want to know, okay, individually, Christine, did I hit all my hand washes this shift? Others will do shift level tracking. So we know this many people are on shift and they should be hitting this many general hand washes. It both are both are options um that we offer.
SPEAKER_04You had two challenges um here.
SPEAKER_02You had to actually We have many challenges, but they're all uh they're all opportunities.
SPEAKER_04Two big ones is like you had a hardware problem to solve, but there's a lot of actual code and software, right? Because then what do you do with the data once the light is scanned the hands? Where do you even start? Like obviously you were kind of background-wise, you were STEM and you're super smart and an engineer, but like how do you even go about ordering your steps to start figuring out proof of concept on something like this?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I spent and I still spend a lot of time in kitchens. Uh, because the reality is you, if I went into a black box and tried to design what this should look like, what food safety technology should look like, I would get it wrong every time. Um, the best thing that I can do is sit in a kitchen, watch how the current operations go, talk to team members about what the opportunity is, let them try our solutions and tell us, I wish it looked like this, or I wish it worked this way, or I wish it'd be so much more effective if it if it did this, and then to build in that real-time feedback. I mean, the reality is the end users are the experts here. Um, and my goal is just to be able to translate their vision into a technology-backed product um and to build it quickly uh so we can uh continue to leverage the momentum we have.
SPEAKER_04So for anyone who is an entrepreneur thinking about pursuing a big idea, I hope they listen to that. Because they're the yeah, your customers, your expert, right? Like and you the if you can be a sponge and go just spend time absorbing what they do and then apply your analytical thinking and your skill set to it, the product's gonna be right in the sweet spot, right? Because you all you did is uh regurgitated out a uh thoughtful engineered solution that addresses what you observe for yourself was hurting them.
SPEAKER_03Well, and it translates. Um, one of my favorite things is when we're sharing the solution with a with a new location or or a new customer base that has never never worked with us before. And they say, It's like you made this just for me. Um and I think the reality is we we did, right? Like we we did make it just for them, and we want everyone to feel that way. Um, and so so that's you know the best compliment that I think I can get on the solution.
SPEAKER_04So you did you build the first full prototypes in your home? Is like like the the mad scientist, like you in lieu of a workshop.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, it was. It was it was uh soldering iron and a bunch of wires taped to a dinner plate in the first iterations of the solution. Um and I think what's been really exciting is also watching how that solution and and the time that we spent with all of our customers helped us to be able to identify what was next. So, in the same way that originally we were prototyping, you know, and and and taping wires to dinner plates around hand washing and hygiene, as that scaled, we realized what the opportunities were around temperature monitoring, around expiration monitoring, around checklists, and now around, you know, AI auditing capabilities. Each of those new layers to the system came um in the same mechanism of generating and getting real-time feedback.
SPEAKER_04It's funny how that works out, isn't it? If you put that customer in their use case first and then you have you solve a problem for them, they start telling you all the other problems that they have, right? And they trust you with information that they would never share publicly.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think they get ideas, right? It suddenly it's like, oh, if you could digitize this, could you also digitize this? Oh, if you've helped me take this thing I've always done manually or on pen and paper in this way, what about this binder of other processes? Uh so it also just sparks innovation and creativity as soon as you start embedding, you know, new ways of approaching problems into an operation.
SPEAKER_04That's so true. What's the AI layer here? Are you using? I know AI is a huge applicability, which we'll talk about in the other problems that they've brought to you or that you've observed and elegantly found ways to solve. But on the what's the AI part, if any, on the uh hand washing device?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, AI is definitely ingrained in all of our products. Um, and part of that is how are we synthesizing all this data that exists in the world, either from our own internal use cases or from external use cases, and using AI to be able to leverage all that data and information to inform best practices in real time. Um, and so by running, you know, an AI-powered algorithm against all this data, you're able to quickly pattern match, you know, maybe it's maybe it's the doorknob that's dirty in this moment based on the way that hand washing patterns have have evolved, or, you know, oh, we're seeing the same levels of contamination happen across this network of areas. Maybe that means that there's a source contamination error or issue. Um, so I think leveraging the power of AI alongside, you know, just day-to-day operational excellence and and the materials we already know and we're building against on those SOPs that that already exist, we're able to build that into the, you know, what happens next and how are we getting that real-time data back to locations? Because I think the biggest thing is like there's a lot of data in the world right now. And if you don't have a way to synthesize, analyze, and get that information in into a place where it can be beneficial, then it's useless. Um, and and so that's one of the biggest ways that we leverage AI across the whole platform and definitely in the hand scanner.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, AI is it shouldn't be viewed right as a uh solution in search of a problem. You you need to identify a problem and then determine how AI will custom fit to solve it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and leverage, create more leverage for for you against that solution, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_04And then that unlocks the next door. I love what you said because we see it with government all the time. Oh my gosh, you if you can do that, well, what about this, right? Like they start actually thinking more creatively like a product person. Um was the the pandemic was that helpful? I would assume that with health getting so much of a spotlight there, did you get any sort of tailwind help from the chaos that was going on in the world? Because when did this first launch?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, we we were already working on this um prior to 2020. We launched the business in 2018. I will say that if there's any, you know, silver lining to the catastrophic elements that existed for the industry and the world at that time, I do think an awareness around health and safety and hygiene was really heightened and has persisted, right? I think people are more aware of overall policies and ways to impact their own personal hygiene and the hygiene of those around them. I mean, if you just think about it 10 years ago, you asked people on the street, yeah, you have to wash your hands for 20 seconds, that's happy birthday twice. People are like, what? No way, that's so long. You know, now you can ask anyone on the street, how long are you supposed to wash their hands? 20 seconds. And even your Apple Watch.
SPEAKER_04If your Apple Watch hears water, it starts counting.
SPEAKER_03Um, but I think you know that that mechanism has really driven people to be more aware of of health and hygiene. And, you know, cleanliness has become a part of the new ambiance. People have come to expect cleanliness and health and hygiene in the locations that they that they want to visit and go to. And I think that's a Good thing, right? Like that puts us in a spot where we're able to, as a whole, collective, you know, prevent different uh illnesses and and potential potential devastating things, you know, outside of of the issues that came during the pandemic.
SPEAKER_04So you you are so diverse in your interest in what you've uh accomplished and not even with just with this company. So go do go go blue devils, right? You graduated from Duke, just up the road from where we are right now. Um and so if we rewind to early years of Christine at Duke. Where where, you know, because we all have it figured out when we go to college, right? Where did you see yourself? What did you want to do? And where did you see yourself? Uh and if not this, like what was the difference? Because I I know in my own life um the the best stuff came from the stuff that I didn't have on the bingo card. Yeah. Um and you obviously had a ton of options um with your intellect and and the way you look at the world. So where'd you think you were going back before this this caught on and you you put your energy into it?
SPEAKER_03Well, thank you. I I appreciate that those com that that those comments, and I think uh college-aged me could have needed to hear them. Um but it it's interesting, you know. I think uh engineering was was I so I was studying biomedical engineering. It was it was challenging for sure. And and I think, you know, a lot of the coursework, especially early in in an engineering curriculum, is you know, intro to physics, intro to comps I intro to different, you know, high-level maths. And um, there's not a lot of application behind those. Uh it's it's often very theoretical and very dense when it comes to the subject matter. And I was struggling through that coursework. Like it was hard. And I wasn't quite sure if engineering was even the right thing for me. Um, and it was actually the layering in, and and and I started to take these global and public health courses because I was really interested in them. And in so many of those classes, we were talking about the engineering needs, the things that that we needed engineers to develop and to build to be able to support the causes and challenges in the world of global and public health. And there were no other engineers in my global and public health courses. And no one in my engineering classes was being connected to these real world problems. And I realized that there was a gap, right? You know, the why behind what I was doing wasn't there at the time. And so by drawing those parallels and realizing, oh, there is a why behind this. You know, I want to be able to create this intersection of what are these challenges and how do we build back real problems for them? Um, and that's what really inspired me on this journey and on the journey of being able to drive that impact. And actually, started a nonprofit organization driven by that mentality where we bring um students, young girls onto college campuses and have them build devices, have them do engineering work that makes an impact in the world, building solar-powered USB chargers for disaster relief scenarios or electrocardiogram simulators for training of doctors and nurses in the developing world and giving them that connection between, you know, engineering is not just bridges and cars and math problems, but it's a way to drive real impact towards problems in the world. And that's what led me on this journey in the first place.
SPEAKER_04That's girls' engineering change. Is that correct? And you started that like way a while ago, right?
SPEAKER_03Was it like 2012 or something? Yeah, right, right when I was when I was experiencing these problems as a student myself.
SPEAKER_04Wow. Are we making progress in that trope that, oh, engineers, that's that's boy stuff. Is that is that getting better? Because there's been a gap historically, hasn't there?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, and I think there, there, it's always improving. The world is always improving and and moving to these new levels. And I think across the board, um, young, young men and women alike, it's important for them to be able to understand what is the impact of engineering, why, and and I think young, young people in general are altruistic, right? Are want to go into something that makes a difference in the world, want, want to make and drive change. And so being able to link engineering to those problems and and demonstrate how having an engineering mindset helps you to be able to solve problems that exist, um, I think is a really compelling and and powerful tool that that has become, you know, much more a part of the narrative and and hopefully will continue to be.
SPEAKER_04It is. And you also, is it sometimes you get a bad fact, but um are you you work with the Clinton Global Initiative as well, right?
SPEAKER_03Yes, yes. I was a part of the Clinton Global Initiative University program. That's uh how the I they sponsored and and supported me throughout my journey with Girls Engineering Change. And I've been honored to to stay involved as a as a mentor and and speaker and to be involved in that organization, you know, even through now.
SPEAKER_04That must been that must be a fun experience, um, right? Because they tackle big problems and um and of course they've got a big name uh behind them. Have you have you enjoyed that that relationship?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. You know, I think programs and initiatives and and especially you know the support and and network that I've built through the Clinton Global Initiative and the Clinton Global Initiative University program is so inspiring. And and their mechanism is, you know, you come with a challenge and a problem, a commitment to action, in their words, that you are committed to solving. And so everyone who's a part of the group and organization has a mission, a real commitment to action with measurable results that they're working to solve and working against. And I think at a young age, and and now, you know, the friends that I've carried through that program that that we still get to mentor and be involved in the program and still get to go back, you know, and and and stay in very close contact, all of us working on different problems, that network and community also inspires you to keep going, also reminds you that that there's a purpose behind that, helps you in the days where it is, as you mentioned earlier in our in our conversation, challenging, hard, you know, filled with impossible and seemingly, you know, I see no direction of where to go next. And other people charting their own impossible paths along these challenges and opportunities and getting inspiration and support and ideas from them. You know, those dialogues and friendships have have made a huge impact in in my life and in Pathspots journey.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and it's like it's one of those things when you give of your time, right? You you get rewarded in ways that are non-monetary, but it's also good for your core business, isn't it? Like, right, because it keeps you driven, it keeps you connected. Um and I think a lot of entrepreneurs are guilty of a little bit of laziness because they're like, oh, but then I'd have to travel an extra weekend or right. And so you you actually can turn down things that might be considered optional, but that actually move you forward in a profound way.
SPEAKER_03For me, the friendships and other people on this entrepreneurial journey is definitely one of the most inspirational things. And us all being able to help and support each other on those journeys makes it all feel so much more possible. And in a world that can be, you know, isolating or or lonely at different times when you're trying to figure out these challenges and opportunities. Um, collaborating and getting that infrastructure of being in it with others that are pushing things forward and celebrating each other's wins uh is one of the best parts of the journey.
SPEAKER_04There is a unique, you said the word lonely, and I think an entrepreneur and a founder's journey can be lonely, even if they're you know always networked with good people. Because ultimately it does come down to you have to, after all the money spent, all the analysis, all the engineering, you got to make a call, right? And and you hope you're right and you've got the right data, but you no matter how many people you have around you, ultimately there is that ultimate loneliness of now we have to test it against the real world, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, and and I'm fortunate, you know, I have an incredible team around me, an incredible network of entrepreneurs, incredible family supporting me in that journey. Um, but yes, for sure, when you're looking against these big challenges and like, all right, I'm gonna launch this into the world. And and it and it maintains that that energy, that enthusiasm, but also that that fear that that comes with, okay, I'm gonna create something and put this out here from my own my own brain and see what happens. And even now as we're expanding, you know, against new problems and challenges in the industry and and and have in the past, it's that same rush and and also that same element of putting yourself on the line and and trusting the intuition and support that you've gotten from from all these experts and and making it, you know, happen and really taking it to the next step with your team.
SPEAKER_04So you originally, so out of school, I think you ended up at a job with corporate, right? Big corporation, right? And I but I think I mentioned that because it was part of I think some of what you saw there in that role opened your eyes to just how big of a problem was unsolved with your initial product. Uh and you also did some work, didn't you, in Kilimanjaro? Uh like so what, what, what pre-Hathspot kind of what sort of ended up being the source of inspiration and what were you doing that then made you say, this is boring. I gotta go chase this.
SPEAKER_03Nothing's boring, you know. Uh, but uh, but there, but there's definitely um things that have inspired me. So I mean, I spent time in the research side of the world, um, and and during that, I spent time in the Kilimanjaro region uh working on and building low-cost, durable, accessible medical tools, obviously for very resource-constricted settings, asking the question, how do I make this technology work when there's no power, no Wi-Fi, no air conditioning, no ceiling? Um, and when I returned, you know, I was working in healthcare systems here domestically, still working on research and development and technology development. But I guess I started to see through those two experiences the gap in day-to-day applications of low-cost durable technology. I mean, when you look at a restaurant, uh they have many of the same problems, like low-cost, durable needs for solutions, um, needing it to work when there's inconsistent uh power Wi-Fi or next to a fryer. So there's inconsistent temperature, right? Like these are real, real challenges that we also needed to be able to develop the tools for. And I think, you know, fortunately, our our healthcare ecosystems here that I was working in do have access to most of these tools that didn't exist in the developing world. Um, but I recognize the need to bring those same types of technology into day-to-day life. And that's what inspired me to start this work around foodborne illnesses.
SPEAKER_04So, where do you start? Like, where do you even source the parts to solder one together yourself? Like, um that like because every element in there is deliberate, right? And you I mean Radio Shack going out of business sales.
SPEAKER_03And and it definitely was something where you were looking at it and realizing that you know, every dollar you spent on development was a dollar out of your own uh bank account at the beginning. Um, and I was fortunate to be a part of some early, you know, entrepreneurship communities like Venture for America, um, like the Clinton Global Initiative University that that had resources and support as you were getting started in these types of infrastructure, you know, opportunities to give you a little bit more support and mentorship and guidance and and and camaraderie as you were going against these challenges. But many of the people that early days we were all starting out our businesses together, you know, we remain really good friends as as we've gone through that scaling.
SPEAKER_04So you've probably obviously there's probably been a challenge a day, uh, because that's just how these things work. But challenge an hour, Cameron. So did you did you have like a moment though where it was like you're like, I don't know. Did you did you hit a wall where you're like, I don't know how we actually solve this, right? Because sometimes it takes a while to break down an obstacle. Did there must have been some moments where you're like can I get this all the way to to like you mentioned, the moment where you see it proudly installed 10,000 plus places and and that is a rush. But um what were some what are some of the darker moments? Because I think that uh uh entrepreneurs and founders that do big things, they always uh a lot of times get focused on in conversations with uh glory. And rightfully so. But you know, like I used to say at a basketball fan, obviously, Tobacco Road Duke. Um you know, but they I think it was Jordan. There's like, yeah, you you see the highlight reels, but what you don't see is I get in there at five o'clock in the morning, I take a thousand shots, right? Like it's it's preparation really matters, and there's some dark moments where you probably doubt yourself. Do you do you have any that you poignantly poignantly remember? So I I I I tell you like in context, I remember one very, very early days. So this would have been 2000, the birth of DHD, the first you know, cloud solution for regulators. And there was a moment where I remember taking a red eye flight back, and I don't sleep well on red eyes anyway, but I'm looking out the window the whole time because I didn't know where we were gonna go next when I landed after that red eye. You know, there's there's just some moments where it's like the stakes are really, really high, and you kind of know you're gonna need to be incredibly lucky and committed to solve your way out of it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I I think there are many of those moments. And and the reality is even, you know, when you reach the the next milestone, you're looking down the barrel of of what's coming next, of what you want to be able to accomplish. And and you feel the real weight of the people that have that trusted you um against this this challenge and this problem, from investors to people who you know quit their jobs to to join your team, to uh to customers who who are saying, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be be in this with you and and go away from a more established traditional partner to be a part of this like next idea for for this journey and and and to invest in a new technology type of organization. And and you feel the weight of that at each stage in the journey. There's um there's not a lot of uh of moments for for celebrating. You're you're thinking about, okay, what's next? You know, how do I how do I take this opportunity that's been entrusted with me into the next level? And then I definitely have had those uh staring out the plane window on a red eye moment. I'm with you in that in that feeling. I can think of quite a few myself, or or you know, very late night, early mornings in the office thinking, like, how are we going to, how are we going to get through this challenge or and how are we going to get this done? And I think for me, that's when I really lean on those relationships that I'm so grateful to be in this journey with and you know, lean on my team and lean on our advisors and our mentors and our investors who have been through this journey before, who have seen, who have seen those, those periods and and can help, you know, with guidance. Because I mean, I'm I'm grateful I've surrounded myself on my team with people that are way smarter than me in all these different areas. And so I I really try to focus on how I can leverage all that talent and all that intellect uh into what comes next in those moments when when I'm I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04It really speaks to me when you talk about the the weight. And it is like you've got the and there's multiple constituencies, the people that invested their money and they need a return on it because that's that's their capital. But then you have the businesses that are trusting their brand and their money to you, and then the one that really like speaks to me is the people. You're right. So when a smart person who has options uh chooses to chase the dream with you, that really does sit heavy, right? Because like the paycheck has to roll every two weeks. And they've put a huge amount of trust, right? When they roll in behind a a visionary and a founder. I I and I think a lot of times people don't think about that either. Uh they just think that it's all glamour for a founder. You know, you go speak at conferences and you stay in nice hotels and oh it's so nice. Yeah, okay, yeah. You think traveling is good for work. That's just you haven't traveled for work. Uh right. But but no, there is a that unique pressure. And one of the reasons I can tell you're successful is because you actually feel it. Like you're not cavalier about it. You actually want to live up to it for all of your uh invested constituencies. And and that again, just a good tip for an entrepreneur is if you uh want to delight your customers and your investors, that will not lead you wrong if you obsess about that, will it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 100%. And it really is a it's a constant um obsession. It's you know, I always want to be thinking about what comes next. I always want to be checking, you know, how's everyone doing? I I am constantly looking and reading, you know, every even today, I read every support ticket that comes in to the Passspot ecosystem because I want to know, you know, what are our customers experiencing? What does it really look like? How does that help us? I mean, every time I'm on the road, I'm I'm asking in in every uh hotel or restaurant I go to that has our system, like, hey, can I come into the kitchen? Can I, you know, it's my favorite place to be. Like, what does this really look like? How does it feel? You know, those are also the things that keep me close to the challenge and the problem so that I that I know that I'm always innovating in the right direction.
SPEAKER_04So what is next? Because obviously that device, if that was all you did, it's really cool. And it's 10,000. It's hard to get real hardware deployed, especially like you said, kitchens and restaurants. They have profit margin pressures.
SPEAKER_03Never boring.
SPEAKER_04It's like that's a hard nut to crack, but it really opens up a whole other layer and world of problems that now you've laid the rails to solve, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. So we started, you know, with hand washing and hygiene, and then we we realized that there was an opportunity to digitize other aspects of the operational environment. And so we then subsequently launched a platform around temperature monitoring and control. So monitoring, you know, everything from food itself to all the coolers, fridges, freezers, walk-ins to you know, cool down processes and reaching the TCS danger zone and all those things. Um, and then we were compelled by our users to embed in a system around expiration monitoring and compliance with all the different, you know, regulations for labels. And so we built out a platform and system for that. That led us to build out a system for monitoring and encouraging appropriate checklist management, you know, daily cleaning logs and uniform checks and all these pieces. And I think what's exciting and what's been powerful about launching these platforms is they all work together and build off each other. So while you're washing your hands, it can pop up and remind you that you accidentally left a cooler door open. Or while you're doing your labels, it can pop up and say, no one's washed their hands in the last two hours. And so our objective is how do you change this from like a spot safety thing that you're supposed to do here or there? And how do you keep all that in your brain? I mean, I'm in some of these kitchens and the line is wrapped six times outside the gears. That's so challenging. I couldn't keep up with that for sure. And they are. And so our objective is how do we get them the right information when they need it? And how are these systems speaking to each other? So you know in real time, and you're using this as a continuous layer against the training ecosystem. So that's where we're at right now. But we we do have some exciting uh new products in the works to talk about as well.
SPEAKER_04All right, yeah. Let's and and by the way, you're so right. I I was just telling somebody I was uh uh grabbed some food at a Waffle House recently for the first time in a while, right? Your Waffle House is great food. Great food, especially at 2 a.m. after a party in college, right? Like it's it's it fits the spot.
SPEAKER_03But I've never been there, Cameron. I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_04You never know why. So why so it's interesting though, because though they yell those orders and they've got people stacked up. I would get fired day one if you're trying to and I'm not a stupid person, but like yeah, it's a the environment matters, uh, and it's crazy in those environments. Um so what are what are the things you are getting ready to debut a couple of really uh meaningfully big things? So what can you talk about here at this stage pre-launch?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so our our perspective is now we have all this data around all these core and critical areas for overall health and safety across the operation, across all the temperature control, the expiration monitoring, the daily operational compliance with cleanliness, and of course, uh my personal favorite hand washing and hygiene. And we started thinking about how we can use all that data to inform against other best practices and what can we do with that data to be able to drive additional opportunities and benefits for the brands that we partner with. And we kept hearing over and over, you know, this gap that often exists around the auditing process and around whether it's internal audits or third-party audits, how it can often feel performative for the location or theatrical, people spending 15 hours the day before their audit prepping for it, or, you know, the day someone comes in with a clipboard, you know, magically these things, these things are all in place and they're not really being as many learnings from it. We are also hearing from brands that if you were using all of the PASPOT ecosystem appropriately and correctly, it was driving much higher initial pass rates on the audits. Like even, you know, some telling us we never fail an audit if we're doing all of our pass bot pieces correctly. And so we felt like there was this connection alongside this opportunity as AI has become something that you can embed into your products so quickly and effectively. To be able to build an option for third-party audits that's more technology driven. And so the way that we've done that is used the Passbot ecosystem as a base. So we're automatically completing a core portion of the third-party audit with the temperature data and the expiration data and the hygiene data, and then layering in video-based AI-driven audits that allow you to scan and walk around your physical environment and automatically coach and train against those pieces of an audit infrastructure. And then use again that data to inform best practices and actually really inform how we can improve that compliance across the board and use that to augment or leverage against those audits that are so critical for day-to-day operations.
SPEAKER_04That that is a huge thing to solve because I know that I think that at least from what they've told me, and I won't attribute sources and out people, but uh a lot of the chains are not happy with the money they spend on third-party audits. And on because of the performative element, they're not, I don't even think they feel like they're getting their money's worth uh for all of that from a food safety culture, which gets thrown around as a buzzword. But what you're describing is a platform that actually makes a food safety culture not a buzzword, but real.
SPEAKER_03Right. We want this to be a daily partner. And I think that's what an audit platform should be, right? Something that that is daily a partner against your operations for your core areas. And by using the base data from the sensor collection to inform when should there be audits, where should there be audits to actually make this responsive instead of, you know, well, we we we have to do them quarterly because they're done quarterly. You know, maybe they should be uh customized, more frequent in some locations, less frequent in some locations based on real and continuous data. And what we see across the board is our day-to-day users of the product, the partners in the stores that are actually using the products, they want to know the why behind everything they're doing. You know, they want to do the right thing and they're driven by our real-time data analytics to perform better because they understand what the risk is or why they're doing these different tasks. And I think audits should be no different. And so being able to leverage a technology-backed tool to really create leverage through those audits in real time. And of course, you know, you also hit the nail on the head to also reduce costs and create a more continuous infrastructure against this that's in that's informing this and and really up-leveling the operation. Those two things are the core goal that that's led us to to launch this system.
SPEAKER_04Really, really, it's really smart. And now you're gonna have an ecosystem that I think you're getting more adjacent to where I've spent a lot of my uh life in with on the regulatory side. There are elements, obviously, the chains need to keep their actual measurements and things private. I know why. If I was running a restaurant, I would never want to share that. But I from a summary perspective, what you're doing and your controls are regulatory is going to be very interested in that. And I think what uh establishments will find is that if they are able to uh show an agency their seriousness and what they've got in place, I think they'll find that their regulatory inspection process gets a lot easier too. And you can even start integrating data from the regulatory. Like there's just like it opens up a whole new world that now suddenly they won't be as scared when the health inspector shows up or or panicky, like, oh, shove all that in the broom closet because you know the inspector's in the lobby. That happens, but this actually kind of creates a different path that you don't really need to have all of that anxiety for.
SPEAKER_03You know, my favorite thing is when our partners tell me I feel more confident in my job because of the system. Again, I think everyone wants to do the right thing. And and by giving them real data, and I think there's a ton of opportunities for partnership across the industry in in different ways from a regulatory standpoint, from traditional audit standpoints to leverage these pieces. And I think, you know, something we talked about, right, in the AI data workshop at AFTO this year is a lot of these things we've done the same way for the last 40, 50, 60 years. Well, we do our inspection this way, our audit this way, because we've always done it that way. And I think with the amount of technology that now exists, it begs the question you know, how do we leverage all those things we've learned, all those processes that we've done for the last 80 years and then layer in technology to be able to do them even better, even more continuously, um, with even more support. And I think it's it's a time and a really important time in the industry to be able to build against those things and create, you know, the next layer, the next level of expectation and the next way to create a healthier and safer world.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I tell you, like, and not telling you anything you don't know, but for anybody probably at 30% that's from industry that that uh watches as best as numbers can tell us. I I would tell them like the other thing is your temperature monitoring, for example. That you only need to have one instance of uh of a cooler or a walk-in going down when you were closed, and the inspector shows up the next day, and if you've got temp monitoring, I don't I don't think I'm overselling it here. The big question when you've got an inspector there is how long do we think it's been out? Because they're trying to decide are we gonna make you throw away $10,000 worth of food?
SPEAKER_02Oh, it happens all the time. All the time.
SPEAKER_03People walking into a cooler of melted ice cream, people walking in to a to a freezer filled with you know meat and caviar and champagne. I've heard it all, you know, things that went out of temperature and and aren't appropriately stored and it's gone. And how could they be, right? And so giving, again, real-time data, real-time consistency against this, driving it where it needs to be. And I mean, I'm sure this has never happened with any of our partners or anyone listening to this podcast. But the thing you hear of people taking at the end of the month their different colored Sharpies and saying, quick, we gotta fill out all the logs.
SPEAKER_02You know, that's not right.
SPEAKER_03But I think that goes back to is that driving the culture we want to create? Of course not. And and nobody in that scenario is doing it because they don't want to do the right thing. So, how do we take these pieces off of the team's plates? I mean, I have now been so fortunate to be in this industry the last 10 years. And I have, as I mentioned, spent a lot of time in kitchens uh and met so many passionate people. And in all my time in this industry, I have yet to meet one person working in a restaurant who said, Yeah, I got into this business because I love filling out my safety logs. Like, no, right? So why are we leveraging their talent and their passion and their energy and their desire to interact with guests and their desire to, you know, be on the be on the front lines and create good food with filling out safety logs? Like, how do we leverage technology to take those pieces and do them well and do them right and then allow our team members to do the things that they do best?
SPEAKER_04You see in the cult classic movie office space. Yeah, it's the equivalent of the TPS report.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_04And yeah, it is. People don't get into most jobs to do the paperwork. They get they get into it for other much deeper, more passionate reasons. But like if if an inspector shows up at 9 30 and the cooler's out of temp, if an operator can say, Well, here's our log, it dropped below temp at 8 a.m. so we don't have to throw the food away, you've probably just paid for a good portion of the Passpot ecosystem for that year, right? Because you just saved yourself from tens of thousands of dollars being put in a dumpster.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. The the ROI around you know, waste and energy and sustainability is all there in addition to these abilities to optimize labor uh against these core goals.
SPEAKER_04So what how can a regulator, so there's a lot of those watching, um for those that are just uh getting more acquainted for the first time with all that you do and are wishing every restaurant they inspected had this, uh I like literally that would be what most people would think that everyone should have it. How can they help you? How can they help because they're in those doors as the regulator every day, not always uh people aren't always happy to see them, but they're there. Um, how can they help you and and and building awareness and and helping operators? Because while agencies won't officially, you know, endorse a company they can't say go do business with, let's be real. If you have a roach infestation, the inspector is going to tell you probably who you should call to get that taken care of. Um so how would you, if a regulator is like, how can we help uh put this more into the world, how would you answer that for them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the regulator partners and friends that that we've built through the years are definitely some of the most effective ways for us to share the benefits of this technology, especially when they see a risk or opportunity area around personal hygiene or temperature control or different areas, and to be able to share because there's so many uh restaurant locations that that you know don't know that these types of tools and technologies exist and are enthusiastic and so excited to be able to solve these challenges and and problems. So absolutely, you know, being able to share, hey, there's something out here that can help you with this. Um, and we have many of those partners that that review the past bot data as a part of their inspection. Um, so instead of the stressful moments of like, oh, we've got to, you know, do all these different things and where's that piece of paper? They're pulling up our dashboard as a part of the inspection and saying, okay, great, I can see all your hand washes, I can see all your temps, I can pull up any day, any range, see what, see what corrective action you employed, all that's logged, all that's stored, all that's there. Um and so it creates a much more seamless process that that can reduce some of the stress on both parties in that that 9 30 a.m. moment where they're outside at the door.
SPEAKER_04It's really funny. When I was there in Columbus for AFTO, I um having dinner with someone from the conference, and we just went to a sushi place. And literally the City of Columbus health inspector walked in uh while we were ordering our food. And again, the place, the vibe changed. Uh the the the very uh very friendly operator, owner, or manager, whoever he was, got really dour and quiet. Like it was like I'm like, what do you what are you guys hoping they don't find back there? Because everybody looked like somebody died. Um so uh we'll put we can put links and you can send us to anything that you think would help, especially regulators, with in the descriptions on all the channels or platforms for this episode, and we'll put that in there. Is there anything from a PASPOP perspective that we haven't talked about or that you you're excited about that that hasn't come up yet from the PASPOP perspective?
SPEAKER_03There's many, many things I'm excited about. I will be here for another another several hours. Uh, but I think across the board for me, we're really energized to continue solving these opportunities and challenges and problems. And as you mentioned, you know, there's so many layers to the ways technology can uplevel existing policies and existing processes and how we can embed that into these different core areas and tackling this challenge of upleveling the audit infrastructure and turning that into a continuous daily experience that that changes maybe the core infrastructure of it, but doesn't change the core goals of what we want to accomplish in an audit and and instead just makes it something that can be even easier to accomplish and leverage all the data that the platform is already pulling and build on that is something I'm very energized by. So I would just, you know, echo that we welcome conversations with partners across all aspects of the industry. Um, myself and my team would love to engage if anyone's interested in this or or wants to share their own perspectives and ideas on how we can continue to leverage the tools and technologies that we've built. Um, honestly, everything that we've been able to create to date has come through direct feedback, dialogues, conversations, partners who who are willing to jump into these challenges with us. So I just am so grateful for the chance to be on this incredible podcast, to share a little bit of our story and what's coming next, and really welcome that we continue that dialogue beyond today to anyone who who'd like to speak about any of these areas.
SPEAKER_04Definitely when you get your the um the full checklist and the replacement for the performative aspects of auditing in place, come back and we can you know demonstrate some key features. And I think a lot of the regulators will will just be stunned, and there's some things where I think that data linking to yeah, there's people are gonna be really excited about this. So I'm gonna guess you don't have much spare time, but like because you're head down in this and you have you started that organization 15 years ago, like you have a lot of all work-adjacent things. But do you have any any passions, anything you do when you have any rare downtime, any kind of hobbies, or are you it's all in on this until mission accomplished?
SPEAKER_03I mean, you know I'm all in on this, but there's so many ways to take the passion that I have for this into other areas. You know, I love getting to travel and the opportunity to travel to meet our partners and clients all over the world and and to get to see and experience um their interaction with food and to get to eat and stay and and and uh and live in some of these different areas has has definitely been so inspiring for me. So I love to travel. I love to try all different types of food, all different types of cuisine, especially anyone who's adopting and thinking about their food safety policies and practices. My favorite conversations to have in a kitchen over a meal. Um, and you know, I love getting to explore and be on this journey with with other entrepreneurs of all different stages and to support their visions and and ideas, um, and to be able to have those dialogues on, you know, walks throughout New York City where we're we're dreaming about what comes next. So it's it's definitely all embedded into this core goal that we we keep pushing forward.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and you people, you guys are gonna hear a lot more from her uh in in the next couple of years. Because I think AI now where it's at, like the pieces are just all lining up, right? Like data. Yeah, it's now data can be free, regulatory data, private data, and you got AI that can like take the the boring parts out of it. Like this is you know, there's nothing more frustrating than being having a great idea and being 10 years too early. I I think you actually like you timed it perfectly with the AI because now this stuff is and it's gonna be affordable too, right? Like these are systems that 15 years ago would have just been price prohibitive for an S.
SPEAKER_03Systems that that three years ago would have been price prohibitive. I think the the technology industry is moving so fast. And one of the things I loved that we kept talking about at AFTO is how are we as a food safety community and and ecosystem building against that, building with that. Um, and and that was so energizing for me to hear everyone reinforcing those ideas. I think the time is definitely now, and I'm so excited to be a part of it.
SPEAKER_04It's it's gonna be a great ride. So, yeah, definitely when you watch that, come back, show it to folks. And um that I think the regulatory can help be a force multiplier uh the more they're aware of it. Um, because this is gonna be some exciting time. So thanks for making uh an hour plus to sit with us today, but we'll definitely have you back because uh we like you said, we could have gone for hours.
SPEAKER_03I already, I already can't wait. Count me officially in, and you know, we're all on this journey together. So dialogues like this make a huge impact on me. Thank you for having me today.
SPEAKER_04Oh, it's my pleasure, and we'll talk to you again soon. That was fun, y'all. I I I hope no you've enjoyed it as much as I did having the conversation. Uh Christine Schindler, the co-founder and CEO of Pathspot. And uh do go check out the links we'll put in the have in the description here because they're it'll blow your mind. Like some of this stuff is like almost futuristic and very, very cool. Appreciate her coming on for all of us here at the Beyond Data Management Podcast, powered as it is every Tuesday by HS GovTech. I'm Cameron Garrison, and we'll check you back here next Tuesday.