We Need a New Playbook for Public Health | Dr. David Dyjack on Trust, AI & Emerging Threats

Environmental health is entering a new era—and the old regulatory playbook may no longer be enough.

In this episode of the Beyond Data Management Podcast, Cameron Garrison welcomes back Dr. David Dyjack, CEO of the National Environmental Health Association (NEHA), for a wide-ranging conversation about the future of environmental and public health.

Dr. Dyjack explains why technical expertise alone is not enough to protect communities. Environmental health professionals must also build trust, communicate uncertainty honestly, understand body language, demonstrate empathy, and establish relationships before the next public-health crisis arrives.

The conversation explores:

• Why environmental health needs a completely new playbook
• How public-health professionals can rebuild trust with the public
• The importance of saying “I don’t know” when the science is uncertain
• Why communication, humility, and emotional intelligence matter
• Emerging threats including New World screwworm, Chagas disease, dengue, tickborne illnesses, and changing vector patterns
• How climate change is reshaping environmental-health responsibilities
• Cybersecurity threats facing drinking-water and public infrastructure systems
• Food safety challenges created by e-commerce and interstate shipping
• Why government leaders must create room for experimentation and “honorable failure”
• The expanding responsibilities of environmental-health professionals in Guam, American Samoa, and other island communities
• Why inspectors are much more than regulators—they are often the public face of public health

Dr. Dyjack also previews the upcoming NEHA Annual Educational Conference in Kansas City, including sessions on infectious disease, wildfire smoke, World Cup food safety, vector control, cybersecurity, and the growing food-freedom movement.

This is a thoughtful and often surprising conversation about leadership, service, risk communication, innovation, and what environmental health professionals must do to prepare for the challenges coming around the corner.

Register for the NEHA Annual Educational Conference:
https://www.neha.org/aec-register

NEHA conference guide App:
NEHA.conferenceguide.ai

Subscribe to Beyond Data Management for conversations about environmental health, public health technology, artificial intelligence, food safety, regulatory innovation, and the people shaping the future of the profession.

#EnvironmentalHealth #PublicHealth #NEHA #FoodSafety #HealthInspection #RiskCommunication #Cybersecurity #ClimateChange #ArtificialIntelligence #GovTech

Please remember to like and subscribe - and reach out to us with your stories and show ideas Beyond@hscloudsuite.com 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

This is the Beyond Data Management Podcast powered by HS GovTech. Now here's your host, Cameron Garrison.

SPEAKER_05 0:12

Welcome back all across EH Nation. I've been looking forward to this one. I think, and David, you can fact check me if I'm right. I think we're about to have a record for the most times in about a one-year period on the on the show. This is the third appearance and needs no introduction. Dr. David Dijack, CEO, the man from Niha. Thanks for coming back in and talking to us again. I know we've been trying and we're running all over, but I'm really glad we got to do this.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Sir, I I hope your audience is not tired of hearing from me.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

No, they they people still talk to me about hey, I've heard so and such with Dr.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

Dijack, your rat story.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Remember the one where you did you I haven't thought about that since that podcast.

SPEAKER_05 0:58

People uh that one actually just a month or so ago started trending again. Like that one really connected with people.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

So rats are disgusting, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

Uh they really are, and this the context of that story, oh my gosh. So and you've been running a lot, haven't you? I mean, you guys have been up to a lot of big, like transformational stuff uh at Nihon. And I know you've been a road warrior uh uh a lot.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah, it's a privilege, and that's the way that I that I view it. But it's the opportunity to see people uh in person versus doing something virtual is worth its weight in gold. You know, you just can't read body language through uh Zoom or Teams call. And to be in person, uh to read that body language, to listen to stories that might not be appropriate for a phone call or for a video call, it's uh there's just an amazing amount to learn and to benefit from by getting together. And that, frankly, is the human condition. We, you know, we as humans love to interact with eat with each other in person.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Yeah, that it's a huge thing, and we'll be talking about um big opportunity for that coming up in Kansas City. Good barbecue and a great AEC that's gonna be coming up here first week of August. Um, and it's not too late. I'll just say if you haven't registered yet, you should. We'll put the link, like we have before, down in the description. And uh, I'm told you'll take registrations all the way up until the conference opens if somebody walks in and says, I want to register.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Uh Sir, sir. I I hope we are registering people all the way through the conference. Uh, I may even find folks in the street walking by. I'm like, you ought to come hear the speaker, and uh you have you have a chance to meet Cameron Garrison in person. That'll run that will not bring you registration.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

Although we are gonna set up the podcast again this year, and I'm really excited about that. That was so much fun last year on the exhibit floor hall uh to do that.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

You guys are rocking it, man. I don't know what Kool-Aid you're drinking there at HS GovTech, but just keep it up, please.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

Thank you. Yeah, it's um it's a I think a gluttony for punishment and just not getting much sleep. I hear you. You you know that drill. Um I do. But you know, things are moving so fast. We'll talk about AI some today. This things are moving so quickly that if you sleep, you will get behind. And so it's there's a lot of things to to go a little extra hard for. So I know what people are gonna say in the comments if we don't address this up front. And David, I think we've got a picture from the West of the World.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

No, don't go there. Don't go there. You don't want to talk screw worms. I think we beat that one to death the last time.

SPEAKER_05 3:38

But but it sounds like it's here though, right? We will definitely not spend a lot of time there, but you sent me a picture of yourself. It sounds like it was making some conference topics as well. Um, what city was this Weston in? Do we have that picture, David? I I I woke up one morning and I was getting on a plane, and there you are standing in front of the uh New World Screwworm lab.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Sir, I was just uh needling you a uh a little bit. Uh ultimately, what was it, a year after you and I had that original discussion, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control brought essential partners into Atlanta, Georgia to discuss the approach to anticipating managing and controlling New World Screwworm. And uh I just couldn't resist getting that photo and sending that to you. Uh but made me. I didn't expect you were gonna post it. Come on, Cam.

SPEAKER_05 4:29

Uh subject line off the record. Um, no, but it is here. And you know, what's really interesting is that you you're you're a happy warrior, right? But also a realist. And there's been a lot, as you sort of foreshadowed in your very first conversation we had here happening. In fact, there was uh the cruise ship and the hontavirus thing as well, right? Like there's just um I I know you talked about you know climate change and there's a lot of factors driving it. That one, at least from a headline perspective, was pretty scary. Um but it seems to have dropped out of the news. Is is is all well that ends well, or or what's the actual expert um informed take on on that story and and other emerging threats?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Well, I put quotes, air quotes around expert. Uh listen, uh the Andes hantavirus is a relatively rare virus. Uh the fact that someone got it and spread it to others is a pretty uh relatively rare phenomenon, and I would expect that to peter out over short order, and it did. Having said that, we need to keep in mind that more and more of these things are going to raise their ugly heads as people go into remote places, as the world population continues to expand, and most importantly, as the climate changes. Uh, I can give you other examples if you want. I don't want to be held to the new world screw worm standard. But but but there seriously, there are other things. In fact, if if uh your team wants to Google, is it called uh Poisson virus? Uh, it's a tick-borne virus that is potentially lethal. Uh, no one talks about it because it's rare, but with a changing climate here in North America, we're gonna begin to see more and more of these organisms that A, we thought were somebody else's problem, or B, haven't been in the United States for a very long time. I live in Florida. I believe I can say with confidence that dengue is endemic here to the state. Uh, some people may take issue with the technical definition, but sir, the the the world has changed and uh we need to change with it, and the profession needs to change as well.

SPEAKER_05 7:01

How is that going? Is uh like generally speaking, writ large, uh is it is it changing fast enough? And and if not, like what's the what's the prescription for that?

SPEAKER_02 7:13

Well, how much time do we have? Uh as long as you as long as you are. This is what I believe to be to be true. That is the the people listening to this podcast are technically astute, they're well educated, and most of them are extremely experienced and things. But what we haven't provided for most of the people listening is a really sound grounding on how to work with the public, how to re how to read body language, how to develop trust. What is a bedside manner for an environmental health professional? And Cameron, if I asked 10 people that question, you know what I'm about to say. There's probably 10 different answers that that we would get uh for for that. So it's time, my friend, uh, for environmental health specifically, and then to use your term writ large, public health writ large, to develop a new playbook. We need to continue to do the strong math, science, and engineering that frankly we saw to great benefits since the uh Nixon administration, the Clean Water Act, the Clean Air Act, uh the Occupational Safety and Health Act, Tosca and RICRA, uh, the food code and the all the updates that go with that. We're pretty darn good at that stuff. What we're not so good at is trust and the way that we communicate, uh, the way that we interact uh with the public. You know, I think I've shared with you before that I have two degrees in public health and I've had no formal lectures on how to work with the public. Now, I I graduated ostensibly a long time ago, let's be clear about that. But if we we need to pay more attention, I think, to the public part. And if we even it even if we need to de-emphasize the health part just a little bit to make room for the public part, I I think the health safety and economic prosperity of the country would greatly benefit.

SPEAKER_05 9:23

And you all are like doing things, and I didn't know until more recently that you guys actually have a comic book that you did on communication, which was just fabulous. Also, like not a boring like policy paper, which nobody reads, or well, some people do, but your average person's not consuming that. Um that that must have gone over really well because that was a really really smart idea and covering sort of this exact topic, right? How do you communicate? How do you win hearts and minds?

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Well, it's it's it's really important that we understand who we're serving. This is a this profession ultimately is about service. I hear this conversation about regulation versus education. We're we're here to provide a service ultimately, and we want everybody in the United States and its territories and frankly the whole globe to live to their full potential in the absence of risks and harms associated with things in the environment. And we we can do that, but we need to understand how to talk to a frightened dad or a or a frightened mother or a frightened family when they hear about you know Andy's hontavirus, you know, should they take that seriously? What should they do differently? Is this gonna be around forever? Should I send my kid to school? These are the these are the questions people uh want answers to. Uh they're not so much interested in the uh penetration rate of viruses through N95 filters, which is what we learn, you know, you know, this is what we learn in school. And so the new playbook in environmental health in in in my opinion needs to address the public in public health. And I'm confident we can get there.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

Yeah, absolutely. Because it goes back to like you you mentioned, I think it was the first time that we uh chatted in this environment. You're like, you you didn't like the way that uh the the whole pandemic thing unfolded because I I think and I'm I'm paraphrasing you about you're like uh we did we got panted at times as we want to close your business and keep you away from grandma. And that's not true, but you know, to a jaded uh public that's divided by attention spans on TikTok shorts, that's a real problem, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 11:49

It it is, and I think an additional comp complicating factor is we we have a distaste, and listen, it's justified for people that are spreading mal, myths, and disinformation. Uh, there could be websites or communications that come out with nefarious players by nefarious players with inaccurate information. And we have a tendency, Cameron, to want to shy away from that. Uh, I'm recommending in the future we we instead of turning away, we should turn into that. We should be, we should go where the action is, sir. And we should go where people are exchanging information, even if we're taking the criticism, even particularly if we're taking the criticism, and we need to show up as people first and scientific experts second. And once we develop those relationships, ideally before the heat you know becomes available, before the heat expresses itself in the passion of the moment, like around Ebola, for example, uh, we we should have those relationships in place so that the well of trust that we have, we can withdraw from that as we work through the scientific uncertainties.

SPEAKER_05 13:07

A great analogy. And if that account doesn't have a balance in it when the crisis hits, you're probably not going to get to do it on credit.

SPEAKER_02 13:14

Ah, sir. Come on, man. You know, and things you know, we were discussing before the show started how quickly everything is moving. And, you know, rumors, was it? Winston Churchill said, you know, a lie is fully dressed and ready to go in the morning before you even put on your pair of pants.

SPEAKER_05 13:29

It's such a great quote. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:31

Yep. Yeah, no, it's true. And also, what you said too is really interesting, is especially if we're the ones being criticized. Because I I think that there's something about Americans, even still, even as jaded and maybe divided as they get, there's a certain respect for someone who's like gonna show up and stand up even under difficult circumstances, right? In fact, you can even sometimes they end up sympathizing with you because you had the courage to actually stand up and take the arrows. Um sometimes modern communication strategy tells you to back down, back up, let the news cycle die down. But really, what what you're saying here is in some cases the opposite is true, especially for public health.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Listen, you asked me in the beginning uh about my travel schedule, and I I am adamantly a proponent for showing up and speaking up. But show up and speak up but before all the chips are on the line. Make sure folks know you and know your character and are have a measure of the man, if you will, before a crisis occurs. And I I I think we're all all in such a rush, and I I understand the stresses of local governmental environmental health, or I think I do, I may not, but it's you know, how many inspections can you do this week? I know that you're you're a you have had those season conversations for a for a very long time, but it's really important we take the time out to be sure that we know who the key influencers are in our communities, that we understand uh some of the stresses that they're under and operate first as standing in their shoes before trying to communicate our science and expertise.

SPEAKER_05 15:22

Mm-hmm. Because trusted source, actually, it's a pretty common term, but a trusted source actually that trust part comes first on purpose, right? Uh because you don't trust somebody necessarily because of the degrees on their wall or or or what their resume says. You you like you said, the measure of a man, you trust the person, and then you're an open, you're more of an open vessel to then hear what they have to say because you trust them.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

Right. I think where we get caught up is in the the uh area of uncertainty. If we're uncertain about something, or if our understanding of the science isn't clear, meaning we just don't know how contagious something is. We just need to say that. It's like we don't know. And that's really hard for us that have master's and doctoral degrees. I mean, you're the expert, shouldn't you know? But by by kind of faking that or pushing the limits, it's actually counterproductive. So I think you should come straight in in North America. You should come straight out and say, I don't know, but we're working on it. And when we find out, we'll let you know. And most importantly, shock everyone by doing exactly what you said you would do. Call them up and say, we have the answer now.

SPEAKER_05 16:43

Yeah, that that's that's so interesting too. What you said you were going to do, because so often a commission gets appointed, right? Or a blue ribbon panel. And and almost people write that off as, okay, yeah, that you know, a big report that nobody reads will be issued. You're you're talking about something real and meaningful, which is coming through with the deliverable. If you say you don't know, but you're trying to find out, report what you find out, and in a way that the average person can connect with.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

So I yes, and do meet your commitments. I how many folks so you travel to a lot of conferences, you take a lot of notes from your conversations. I bet you follow up. It may not be the next week, but it could be two weeks later. Most individuals I know don't follow up. They make promises in the heat of a conference. Yes, I'll get back to you next Thursday, and rarely do they do that. We should shock and surprise in a in a favorable way the people that we interact with by actually doing what we'll say we'll do. And you know, that puts deposits into that trust account.

SPEAKER_05 17:52

Yes. Oh, that's a conference example. So I was telling somebody recently, because the spring conference season was like two red eyes, a bunch of back and forth. And the most like uh anxious the most anxious or stressful part is all the follow-ups. Like if you you you talk to someone, you note it, and uh there's this always feeling, am I forgetting something? Like, did I not get back to somebody? Um it takes a lot of diligence and hard work to do it. And I hope that uh most people don't not follow up, but I I've seen that myself because it's easy to have a conversation at a conference in the moment and then you get back to your normal schedule and life crowds crowds it out. Um but you know, it's something your parents you talked before, uh not just here about the wisdom of a grandparent, a grandmother, a grandfather. It's pretty much a lesson they would teach, right? Do what you say. And that that's a good building block for then future success. You gotta do what you say.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

I I would add to to that just just one notion that you don't always have to have the answer. I hear this quite frequently, even from my staff. I didn't call them back because I didn't have an answer. I'm like, oh my god, that's okay. Call them back and tell them you don't have an answer. Do you know how rewarding that is to somebody holding by their phone? If you like, I haven't forgotten you. If you you are front and center, I just don't have an answer for you yet. If you got that call, how would you react to it?

SPEAKER_05 19:26

Oh, it it it thrills me. And I'm laughing, I laughed because I've told our people that before. They're like, Well, we don't have an answer yet. I'm like, well, so if your car is in the shop, uh, I have used this example with them, and you know, they're like, Well, we're gonna do diagnostics, we'll get back to you, and three days go by and you haven't heard anything, and four, would don't you want them to call and say, We're not sure yet, but we're still working our tails off on it. Like, how like people sometimes don't put themselves in the opposite seat. Like, not calling can be considered profoundly disrespectful because you wonder if you got forgotten about.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

You know, sir, I heard from I think it was a gentleman named Mike Prelip, who was a, and he still may be a university of uh a UCLA university uh professor, and he said something really interesting. He said a lot of interesting things, but one of them was don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Yeah, and I don't know where he got that. I because I I've heard it uh several times since, but it's true. We're so busy, I I think in our profession, we're we like we gotta be precise, we gotta be accurate. It's like, no, you don't. No, no, you don't. You just need to be a person and explain uh where you're at, what you know, what you don't know, and what you anticipate the next thing will be. And if people trust you, they can deal with that uncertainty. In the absence of information, they'll make up their own, or guess what they'll do? They'll go online.

SPEAKER_05 20:54

Yep. And Reddit is not a good place for the topics today. And that it also, so if you're just starting out your career and you're young, whether you're inspector or not, what no matter what you do, like take note of this because I think it's a universal life principle. And uh, the other thing is like people, I think sometimes I, you know, like I'm I'm very educated. I I'm a PhD and I I can't say I don't know. But I think what they miss is that the inverse actually is true. If you if people know you're willing to say you don't know, when you stand up and put your hand down and say I do know, they're gonna be a lot more inclined to believe you, right? Because they know you're capable of saying, I don't have the answer.

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Right. You know, I I watched this movie. Is it called Avatar? There's a new one out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:38

That that was that was um they just released one a few months ago, didn't they? A second one.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Yeah, I was on a long flight and watched it, and uh I'm I'm gonna keep my review to myself, the the the stars, but but you know, there there is that repeated quip in the movie that says, I see you.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

And and and sir, I don't know who wrote that line. But it's a it's a good one. People, including your coworkers and my constituents and my co-workers, they want to be seen and they want to be heard. And we need to figure out how we communicate that in a meaningful way, even when there's a cloud of uncertainty around uh us as an organization or around a technical issue. Uh, we just need to be honest, and that honesty bleeds out of us the way that we look at a camera, the way we make eye contact. And I think I've shared this before. People can read you faster than you can talk. People can read your body language faster than you can go through your PowerPoint presentation. Your talk may be over before it even started. And when I say you, for the folks that may be listening, uh, it may be over before it started just by the way you walked into the room and how you interacted with the host or interacted with the people in the audience. Uh I and that that feature of public health does not receive the attention, I believe, that it it deserves. And uh we can do a better job, and I'm sure that we will.

SPEAKER_05 23:17

And it's such a that's such a dangerous one, too, because most of those reads uh that end your presentation before it starts aren't even there's subconscious processing, right? It's it's almost it's uh almost like a lizard brain, like you pick up cues, and you might not be consciously thinking, well, this is a waste of time, I'm tuning out, but you just it's it's in our core, our instinct is we we make snap judgments, and body language is so much of it. Your PowerPoint could be beautiful, beautiful. You'd spent hours on it. Um doesn't matter, right? If if the posture and the interaction is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Can I share a short story with you? Please. Yep. So the year I'm gonna say was 1997, a long time ago. Is that 30 years ago almost? And isn't that mind-blowing, by the way?

SPEAKER_05 24:07

Like 30 years to get 97. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean sorry to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

No, you're right. You're you're I I had been retained uh by a local bus company that was only using natural gas to fuel their buses. This is in Southern California. Doesn't that sound like a good thing?

SPEAKER_05 24:26

Yeah, you would uh yeah, you think so.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

It wasn't diesel with diesel particulates, this was natural gas. And the pumping station for these buses would intermittently release natural gas. And as you know, there's Mercaptans or that skunk smell associated with it's there for a reason. It's to notify, you know, local uh occupants of a house or of neighborhood, there's something there that's potentially combustible. The local community near this bus station, where I should say a fueling station where the bus is fueled up, was up in arms because there was an elementary school across from the fueling station and they could smell methylmer captan. Classic case of local neighborhood versus government. And there was friction. And so the group of government officials brought in, and I'll name the name because it was 30 years ago, the South Coast Air Quality Management District and all of their toxicologists to come meet with the local community. I sat in the back of the room silently and just watched the toxicologists, the air quality experts, in their suits and ties and gray skirts and white blouses. Are you with me? And their bow ties, are you with me?

SPEAKER_04 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

But they stood in the front of the room and talked to each other with their back to the audience. They look like a herd of musk oxen, right? You know how you know how they get it. Yes. Yep. Circled up. And and sir, this is a true story, by the way. It's absolutely true. The audience were, I would say, not quite middle class folks, or maybe middle class. They were not dressed in Brooks Brothers suits and silk blouses and expensive pumps. Are you with me? The meeting was over before it started. Because the experts who were probably introverts, you know them because you work with them, they're really smart, they're uncomfortable in a public setting. Hey, there's my coworker. I'll go talk to them. But kind of like going to a uh a cocktail party. What do you do when you show up? You migrate to the first person that you recognize. That's a friend of yours. Yeah, right. That's what they did. And the audience was boiling over with anger before the meeting. That meeting was over, sir, before it started. And that is a true story.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

They weren't gonna hear a thing they had to say after that meeting.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Oh, oh, they and they didn't, they and they didn't, and it to me, and I just sat in the back of the room, like, man, I wish I could record this. I mean, this is before sell these, like these fancy cell phones. Uh it it was it was astounding. And while I remained in academia, I used to tell that story like, don't let this happen to you. I even encourage our staff at our annual conference, don't walk around in packs, don't walk around because what's the natural condition? You walk around with people that you know and like, right?

SPEAKER_05 27:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

But but you're sending a message, you're sending a message, don't approach me.

SPEAKER_05 27:46

It's it's it's it's an other ism, right? You are yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's intimidating for someone to decide do I want to go interrupt what looks like a really good conversation, and they clearly know each other, you actually are sending a signal, don't bother us.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Exactly. And so this this kind of thing is the subtleties here are profound. Most people, when I talk to you about this, roll their eyes at me. They're like, you know, well, what do I regulate? I'm like, ma'am or sir, if you want to be a good regulator, you you need to be a good human being first. And you you need to hold your your body language in a way that shows that you're open, that you're listening. You need to in North America, you need to make eye contact and you need to express empathy and compassion. Even if you're writing somebody up or closing their facility, there's a way to do it and a way not to do it.

SPEAKER_05 28:45

And yeah, and I think sometimes the more educated the person is, the more that they think that warmth and and that openness can is like a crutch for, but it's not. It's weak the delivery vehicle for your knowledge.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

It's you know, we're it's not a sign of weakness. You know, humility is not a sign of weakness. But I no one ever talked about humility when I went to grad school. And I'm not criticizing, they they were doing what they knew how to do at that point in time, but you know, those who know better should do better, and that's why we're talking about it now.

SPEAKER_05 29:22

I mean it's really smart. It reminds me of a movie. You see, have you seen the movie Aaron Brokovich? Long time ago. What a great one. It very similar. Like they brought in their toxicology experts to tell the residents who'd been poisoned from those wells. A true story, by the way. Um, you know, all the science on no, you can't be that sick, or like and the case fell apart. And then it was a non-lawyer who actually was like could empathize and connect with them that actually ended up getting justice against PGE in the end. It it your style matters. A lot of people say style doesn't matter, only facts matter. Facts do matter. We we need to be clear about that, especially in this day and age. But how you deliver them matters just as much if you want them to be heard. Right? Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

I know folks talk about it, it gets you know a certain amount of lip service, but I I think it's a chapter in the new playbook, uh, frankly, is this whole idea of being empathetic, being compassionate, practicing humility. And then for those people like you and me who may have positions of influence for a short period of time, pointing to that and saying, I admire that. I I I admire that person and their approach to their work. Uh and I I think you know I can do a better job at that, and I'm committed to it.

SPEAKER_05 30:57

And I we we talk to them every week. And and it's if they don't feel like they have to play a role, there's so many smart, thoughtful people and caring people. Uh, there's so many things that people do that from this community for each other when something happens to one of their colleagues in the office, but they also are very kind to operators in a lot of cases. Like there's a the stigma is different from the reality. And Bob Custard, you know, you're familiar with Bob Custard um in West Virginia now, but he said when he took over in Alexandria back in the day, he asked his folks, so what is your job? What do you do every day? And he said the answers he got rapid fire back were I I write permits, I do inspections. And he said he looked at it and he goes, How boring. Is that literally what you want to reduce your life to? Like, no, you can do so much good in this role. And inspections and permits are one of the required elements. But he told a great story about how one of his staff that he admired, that he was in a rural part of West Virginia at this point in time, and there was a family who was about to get condemned because they they had an old like cesspool and it was it was bad, but they had no money to repair it. And that inspector went out, he was driving back and feeling like this just doesn't feel like the right solution. Like these people have nowhere to go. And he saw there was a couple of cars in the parking lot of a country church, and he pulled in and he went in. He goes, I've got a situation, and the last thing I want to do is write an enforcement action against these people for thousands of dollars that they don't have. And rallied the local community, in that case, via a you know, a church, who actually had members and new people. They bought the parts, they bought a system, and they went and installed it. And his point was you can do your job and enforce ordinance, but there's a lot that you can do to actually change lives beyond just that.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

That is a beautiful story. I I need to talk to Bob about that. I I feel in my heart that we often uh the folks listening uh to this podcast, we often forget we're in the public health universe. And this is about protecting and promoting the public's health. That's what this this is really what should keep us motivated throughout the day, in my in my opinion. And I think we've lost sight of that because and there's a lot of legitimate factors why we've lost sight of it. But I I think it's time to recalibrate the entire profession. It's like we we're here to ensure every child reaches their full potential, and the way that we do that is by having uh efficient and effective inspections to reduce risk. But make no mistake, it's about each and every child reaching their full potential and protect protecting folks from harm that we know and those that may be just around the corner.

SPEAKER_05 34:07

And while the checklist is important, it is not an end unto itself, right? The checklist doesn't hold magical protection power. It's about the person who's interpreting and actually applying it. And also teaching, because take food service. You've got kids, right? High school kids, college kids working their way through school. Yeah, they're not they're not scientists. And so what may seem like a duh to you, a food temperature thing or a holding temperature, they genuinely don't know. They're not trying to break the rules, they just don't understand why. Sometimes the why matters when public health is on the line.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Well, why always matters in in in my estimation. I I don't want to overlook those folks. You mentioned West Virginia, and I think that may be a case in point. There is a lot of stress, Cameron, on the workforce today to get a certain minimum amount of work done. And for those of you listening, you heard what I said, I honor you. I understand you've got you've got the punch list that you you got to get through. I'm just adding, don't forget that there is a spiritual uh component to public health. And that is we're trying to ensure that the daycares are safe, that retail food tastes good and is healthy for the consumer, and the beaches are safe and enjoyable uh for those folks that recreate there. That's just to have that in the back of your mind because I know in many states, the governor's office and the legislature, it's like, how little can we invest in this just to say that we're complying with best practice?

SPEAKER_05 35:48

Mm-hmm. Well, because if the checklist is what you convey is all that matters, then you know it's like students. They, if you teach to the test, they will they will learn stack how they process the information to do well on the objective. And it's possible to actually technically do well on a checklist and actually have none of your fundamentals right. Uh well, maybe not none, but you in spirit, right? Like there is more to it than just the letter grade on the wall. Um that that's an outflow of getting a lot of other things right that you you don't want to just teach to that test.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

So I think you're really onto something important. And I apologize if we talked about this before, but I feel that we've crossed an isthmus from a regulatory anchored public health universe, and I'm specifically speaking to environmental health professionals. And now we're in an era where there may not be a regulation that applies for the kinds of things that are going to increasingly take up your time. Indoor air quality. There's almost no standards outside of uh tobacco smoke uh for indoor air. What do we tell people to do when it's hot outside? Go inside, right? Where there's almost no regulatory apparatus or inspection protocols that are readily recognized across the United States. Uh, the same thing is maybe true for microorganisms uh in in the indoor environment. Is there a standard for ticks? Our standard for mosquitoes? Are you with me? So the the we need to be critical thinkers. We need to know the the toolkit that provides us the skills to negotiate with uh individuals that may have influence or stakeholders that were were trying to take care of pooled water in their yard because Vadey's a gypti mosquito. This kind of thing wasn't so important even five years ago, and it's it's it's really important today. Uh, you know, I uh here's a new one, Cameron. Uh shogus disease. How many folks are conversant in in shogus?

SPEAKER_05 38:14

It's gotta be a small number, sir.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Uh it I am I talked about New World Screwworm, uh, what was it, a year and a half ago? Uh I am not putting the same level of confidence around Shogus, but this kissing bug, they call it kissing bug disease. Uh, as I look at the data, I'm like, ooh, this is no longer a rural Central and South American phenomenon. This is now moving into the southern United States at uh it at a pretty significant clip. And are are we even talking about it?

SPEAKER_05 38:50

You don't you don't see it on conference agendas or anything, that's for sure. And what are the what are the because it is like not really talked about much. What are like maybe it's just a primer for people that are like, what is that? Maybe they've heard kissing bug, but they really know no other details other than that's an interesting name.

SPEAKER_02 39:07

So, first, it's not the love bugs uh like you see in in in Florida. There's these insects, uh, when they bite, they come indoors, they bite at night, and I think uh they like to to bite around the lips, hence yeah, k kissing bugs. And the the long-term uh impacts of this is that there could be uh cardiovascular disease, uh GI disease, and other things. It's not uh an acute thing, it's a it's a chronic uh disease thing. And this disease is passed by these kissing bugs. I I think we need to revisit uh entomology in our schools of public health, just like we should have always been teaching nutrition. Uh, we we need to dust off the entomology books and really look at vector biology in a new light given the environmental conditions that the country's currently in.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

So it really sounds like that if just even now, but in a few years, we're gonna look back and realize that there's a few decades there where we were living in an abnormally quiet, controlled time. Is that does that sound right? Like, because things are great compared to now.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Like, so I we were, uh and I know I'm gonna catch slack uh for for the I should say flack for this. The Nixon era environmental regulations, sir, they worked. The Clean Water Act, in my opinion, is the greatest single public health achievement in the United States ever. The Clean Air Act, Tosca and RICRA, some could even argue a HIRA, the asbestos hazard emergency response act, those acts anchored in science and medicine and engineering produced tremendous results on behalf of the behalf of this country. It reduced the cost of health care, it extended people's lives for for sure. And that thinking that engineering, clinical, environmental, public health orientation was highly successful for 50 years. We're now in a new era. Yeah, and we're not that new era is going to take new thinking.

SPEAKER_05 41:26

Yeah, new thinking, and also like not um not writing off all that infrastructure that got built. The infrastructure needs to evolve to new threats. But you know what's really funny is I know there's people out there who are like Nixon did that, right? Because again, just it the way you get snapshots of pop culture and history, you never kind of get a deep dive unless there are documentaries and things and and material out there on it. But the average person that is not what they would say if they had 10 guesses when you said, Tell me something about Richard Nixon, go. That it just is lost a history to the average person.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Listen, I I I am not judging his character, judging his presidency. I think he was one of the finest public health presidents we've ever had. And yeah, you can boo me if you want, but I think the data is with me.

SPEAKER_05 42:20

Facts are facts. I mean, you'd have to go back probably to Teddy Roosevelt, right? To to to see a you know a president that was more like behind a push to improve public health. I mean, I know there's others, and that's a a distillation, but uh you know, Roosevelt was the what the Food and Drug Act and and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

But oh, so I I wish I was one thousandth of Teddy Roosevelt. That that gentleman was a real renaissance man.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

The man in the arena is one of my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

Oh, oh, that is that is wow, wow.

SPEAKER_03 42:51

I if he wrote that I'm just so impressed. Uh so sorry, what's that, David? Did you have something?

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Google search. It says the top three presidents for environmental health Roosevelt, Teddy, Richard Nixon, and Jimmy Carter.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

There you go. So, Cameron, there you go, sir. We we called it.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

Yep, that's that that's 100% right. But yeah, the man in the arena, I I love that. Like it also it speaks to what we're talking about, right? You talked about showing up even when you're under fire. Like the the actual act of being in the arena and trying to do something is is is really, really paramount.

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Well, I I think the the rest of that quote is, and even if you fail, at least you fail daring greatly, right? Yes. Wow. You know, I I think uh the our current president was just in France, and I think Teddy, uh, as part of a speech was in France. I think he was at Versailles when he he gave that's that speech that included that quote. Uh Wow.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

It really is and by the way, even if you fail, then you show a way for someone else to come and hopefully get further than you did behind you, right? Things are iterative in life. Not everybody gets all the way, but they paved the path for then the next people to come and get a little bit further. It's just not to be too too philosophical, but it's just it's a mentality, right? It's a life mentality.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

It is true. I one of our most uh I would say engaged sessions I've ever had at our annual conference was a session on failure. And I thought it was gonna fail. It was Chuck Tresser from the University of Washington and I were gonna talk about how we failed and what we learned from it. And there were only like three people in the room when the session started, and I like, yeah, we failed. And the poor speaker, man, it's tough.

SPEAKER_04 44:51

It didn't take the podium. There's three, four people there.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

And by the end of the session, the room was full. It was because this was in Anaheim a long time ago, and we were in the hotel across the street, so people were racing, I guess, to come over. Uh, but we had to stop because it stop the session because everyone in the room wanted to tell their story of failure. And you know, the important thing was to loop in what did you learn? What did you learn? Failure is so much more interesting than success.

SPEAKER_05 45:25

It is, it's the best teacher, and that's and I get it, because when you're telling the story of somebody who did something great, you're filling the time with that. But, you know, over even in business, overnight successes, it's rarely a thing. Uh, you know, people look back and say, Facebook, Google, overnight unicorn. Not really. It took them years to figure out how to make money, and they had to learn from that didn't work, that didn't work. And again, I think it goes back to a mentality. If you if if failure is your teacher, you just come back stronger next time. It's like software. Now, I don't write software as a first profession, but I I've around it enough and been involved in building enough to know that it's iterative. And there's this bug, and then you go do that, and another one pops up. You you have to, it's just part of the process of life. Like you can't just go get it all overnight.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Yeah, we just need to be sure that we surround ourselves with or provide the leadership for the conditions which support uh honorable failure. Uh, I am not encouraging failure as just a standard practice. But if you really tried and you had good reason to think you would succeed, uh you'll never get criticism from me.

SPEAKER_05 46:42

And isn't it true that that's a uh an even more important thing to focus on in government? Right because there's just history is replete, local, state, federal. Any example that the person who steps up and tries to do something big uh ends up kind of getting runoff in shame, so to speak, because we don't know how to accept positive failure.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Leaders matter, Cameron. Leadership matters, and it's the leader of the organization that can uh create the environment that makes failing okay, or can create an environment where people hide from it or don't take risks because they're afraid of failing. Listen, the only way we're gonna succeed in public health or any other profession is by taking risks. And I'm not talking about sinking the whole ship, but you know, our philosophy at Nihaw is to stick your toe in the water, see if it works. If it works, let's scale it up. If it didn't, move on.

SPEAKER_05 47:47

And sometimes it's a combination, right? It there's parts that didn't work, and you go back to the drawing board and you say, okay, we're gonna we're gonna tweak this and this, and now it's ready to work. You can't think of all of that in a lab setting, right? You can't sit there and say, okay, I'm gonna think of every edge case that's going to maybe be a problem. Sometimes you actually get out there and let the process teach you, um, in especially in complicated ways. I'm not again, I'm not saying shoot first, ask questions later, but it's impossible for anybody in an office to think of everything.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Listen, uh, in fact, we're probably the worst people to be thinking about it. Get an idea and then share it. Let the real world teach you a lesson.

SPEAKER_05 48:28

And the law of unintended consequences is a real thing, right? And no one's figured out how to beat it.

SPEAKER_02 48:33

Oh, sir, in in public health, we've screwed up so much stuff in the name of trying to do it right. I mean, just look at COVID.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

So I don't know one evil person. Not one evil person, not I wasn't part of one evil conversation. It's like there was no back room, right?

SPEAKER_04 48:49

There was no back room.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

There were no cigars, there was no whiskey, there was no one that I'm aware of that was planning to put some industry out of business by clearing an emergency. Uh, there was none of that. Real life will teach you lessons in a hard way.

SPEAKER_05 49:08

And that's it's actually, I think, social media and stuff, but we now people are so quick to the conspiracy theory and they overlook the obvious that real life is messy and no one has perfect foresight, and sometimes things just don't go as planned. And um, but I I hope it doesn't make people less risk-taking in in a smart way, though, because it can be a deterrent to stepping out if you know that the you know you could be ridiculed or go viral online um for it. Um I don't have an answer to that, but we need, I guess, brave people, right? We need brave people that know who they are and what they stand for.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Again, if the leader makes it okay, Cameron, uh, it will be okay. If the leader is risk averse uh or chastises individuals who try to do something great, it gets back to that uh man in the arena thing. It's we we need to dare to be great and then just let the chips fall where they will, as long as we're disciplined and our motivation is pure. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 50:15

And it goes back to what you talked about before. I don't remember if it was episode one or two that we did together, but scene around the corner, right? Uh, and you do that really well. So let me throw an obscure one at you. You testified in front of lawmakers in February. I'm sure obviously you did it, you remember it, but um, I just was fascinated that you flagged e-commerce as it was a really interesting case. I did, I read the testimony, uh, and it was fascinating. They flagged e-commerce, I believe, was in the context of Guam, right? But as a emerging food safety thing to contend with, you don't have to, but that I think people would love to hear a little bit about that because on the surface, you're like, e-commerce, what's that got to do with food safety? But again, you were looking around the corner. Um, feel free to elaborate on on what what I just opened up there, if you'd like, and what you were getting at when you made that did that testimony.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

So for for Guam, we were supporting Tom, who's the director of of environmental health, and and there was a a case to be made that to protect and promote the economy of Guam, that there needs to be sufficient staffing of sufficient skills and education to be in place to anticipate what's coming up around the corner. Otherwise, you're always going to be playing catch up. And with e-commerce, uh, and I'm trying to recall what exactly I was referring to in that particular set of circumstances, but we we need to think about not just today, but what will be standard practice six months from now or two two years from now. And how do we prepare the workforce today while we're trying to make our deliverables uh while we're preparing for uh let's say the year 2030, uh for example. With e-commerce, I I think uh what I was referring to was food that's that crosses state and territorial lines.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

Yeah, and it breaks the inspection model, potentially, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:21

That that's exactly right. And we need to we need to be thinking about that. And particularly when you have a territory like Guam that imports so much, and potentially as an exporter, uh, we we need to be thinking about all those things. The environmental health profession there is often responsible, let's say in places like American Samoa or places like Saipan or places like Guam, they're doing all the usual and customary things that we do in the lower 48, but they're also inspecting cargo as it's coming in. They're also probably managing uh cemeteries because you know, be because of water, uh the the groundwater level and other factors associated with living on a small island. Uh it is we we need, particularly in places like that, where environmental health wears so many hats that they need to be prepared for that. And that that was what I was suggesting to uh uh the folks there in Guam, the assembly there in Guam is that this isn't just uh convenience. This is a necessity to maintain the health, safety, and economic prosperity of the island.

SPEAKER_05 53:33

And that sounds too like that blurs the line between manufactured food regulation, like right, like it's it mixes up the board a little bit, right? Because everything's being imported and shipped in. It's it's not the lower 48 model.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

So it's those are highly complicated places. I have such admiration for the Pacific Islands, and if they're listening in, I have admiration for you. Uh there is a uh every director I have met there is juggling a number of balls at any given time. They are running point on vector control, they are running point on it, they are running uh point on uh safety of imports. Yeah, they are they are running point on tattoo parlors and beauty shops and massage parlors and restaurants and the hospitality industry, and you know who who knows what is next in this crazy mixed-up world. And these folks uh in that environment are doing the best that they can, and I I just have tremendous respect and admiration for them.

SPEAKER_05 54:37

I do too, because the folks um American Samoa actually implemented the HS system uh a couple years ago, and yeah, they're they have a much broader mandate of things they have to contend with than you know, somebody in Iowa or North Carolina. It's um jack of all trades.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

So and there's another dimension of that, and it gets back to this idea of trust is culture. The subculture in those places are real, the expectations and the societal norms are different than they may be. I'm talking to you from Orlando than from Orlando. They they they are different. David Dijack could not go to American Samoa and perform. I I just you know, on a day-to-day environmental public health basis, uh, there's no trust. Uh, I don't understand uh the cultural standards there, uh, the expectations. For example, uh in American Samoa, you can't swim on, I think it's on Sundays, you're not allowed to swim.

SPEAKER_05 55:41

Really?

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Yeah, it's it and I am respectful of of that. Uh if and most of the property there is pri is in private hands. So if you're swimming on a beach, it's somebody's beach, it's not like the state park. And uh you need to get permission to to do that. And if it's Sunday, most likely the answer is gonna be no.

SPEAKER_05 56:02

So it makes again context is king. When you explain the context, that makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Yep. And I think this is what frightens me about the uh the what do they call that generation alpha? Uh the the the workforce coming uh coming in today. Uh we need to be much more profoundly in tune with human beings today than than we're perhaps we even were in the in the past. And I feel uh society and the cultural norms in the lower 48 are actually driving a wedge. They're not a magnet towards excellence, it's driving a wedge away from excellence and inner personal skills.

SPEAKER_05 56:45

It it really is. Um, and I'm going to pronounce this wrong. Um, but uh you've mentioned it multiple times in in your writings, and uh, which there's a lot of those, and so I'll give it a shot. Um Zoli led. Does that ring a bell? Um spelled, I think it's French, right? The um J-O-L-I-L-A-I-D concept of singing in unison uh or singing ugly.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Uh joy de bevray? Uh that there's the yes, yes.

SPEAKER_05 57:17

I told you I was gonna ruin it. Like yeah. French, not my thing.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

I start I started to sweat. I'm like, did I say that? Yeah, it's it's the joy of living, right? It's it's it's the joy of of being. And uh I I that is really important uh that we embrace this is not just a career, it's not just a job, it's not just a way to make money, but it's it's a way of life. And I think for those individuals that really embrace that French notion to its fullest are are frankly the highest performers and the happiest in the profession.

SPEAKER_05 57:58

That's really it just it it stuck out because I'm like that makes so much sense. And also I think again, if I misattribute, you hit me. But um, you know, a lot of the age stuff is kind of like uh unsexy or like it's it's stuff that a lot of people would probably prefer not to think about. Um but you gotta sing in unison and make it your identity. I I wonder, do inspectors uh le like do they like talking about their job at parties? Like I I know at conferences, of course, because we're all birds of a feather. But I you know, I I I wonder, like, because you can tell a lot at just a general party when it's not themed to like one industry or anything. You can tell the people that love what they do. You you you know what I mean? Like you can just tell they're not just talking to talk, they almost get more like you when we're talking, you animated the hands get involved, and you can tell they actually sorry, sorry, it's it's good because it means like this is not a robot, this is a person who profoundly cares. So, so so listen.

SPEAKER_02 59:01

I joined this profession uh like 40 years ago. I can't believe I'm saying that. And my first employment uh my first task, I had the title Industrial Hygiene Technologist. If you want to look at a ladder on of the titles and professions within public health, that is the lowest of the low. And sir, I learned so much and had so much fun doing what I did. And I would come into the office uh because I would come into the office, they would give me an assignment, I'd be gone for two weeks and then come back in. Uh, and I'd be bubbling over with man, this was the coolest thing, ABC. And folks, like, how do you see anything fun in that? Like, how could it be so interesting, it was so fascinating. Uh, the conditions under which environmental and industrial health uh was being practiced was so, I mean, it was such an adrenaline rush every day. But my attitude was, I'm gonna learn everything I can from this. Was it dirty? Yes. Was it a little like unsafe at times? Like I was working in Washington, DC at night, uh, back when that was a little bit specious. Uh, yeah, it was a little unsafe, but man, the kinds of things that I saw and the opportunities that I had because I was willing to push the envelope. I I am forever thankful for that dirty, grimy, that rat story. I could tell you other stories uh because there's so much to learn there. I mean, it I I'm really blessed. And with that kind of attitude expressed at the individual level, there's no end to what you can accomplish.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:56

That's true. And I there's a general, I think, life lesson too. I think too often now somebody gets a job that's dirty or not the one they would like ultimately, and they look past it, right? Like part of like being able to observe and be excited and learn things is you got to be paying attention. Your eyes have to be open. And if all you're doing is I'm gonna mark my time until I can get to that next job. But you know, the dirty secret is I found that people like that is when you get to the next job, you won't be satisfied, or the next rung up. And so then you start looking ahead. Like, and what you just described was the opposite of looking past, it's being present, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

Yeah, I it I'm telling you, some of the things I did are are are hair-raising.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:45

Okay, can you top if you can top the rat story, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:50

I mean the the asbestos industry in the 80s was uh, you know, some within the industry called it uh, you know, white gold because they were making so much money as some people said to me, they paid me to put this asbestos on this hot water pipe, and now they're paying me to take it off. So that it was it was referred to as white gold, and there were all kinds of charlatans that were involved in that business. They called it rip and skip, right? Where folks were trying to uh take shortcuts, which I didn't appreciate in places like elementary schools. You don't need asbestos fibers floating around uh elementary schools, and so it taught me a great deal in working with I'll use the term charlatan, these these let's say uh less than professional asbestos removal companies. Uh, it forced me to learn how to deal with unruly uh players out in the field. It it helped me understand the prospective students, parents at PTA meetings when they were concerned about asbestos being there. I learned all about occupants of buildings when asbestos was being removed in the building, but uh the building management didn't relocate those occupants. So I was responsible for keeping them safe from asbestos fibers that that may be released. So, in one sense, it could have been perceived as stressful. That is, you know, talking to a building occupant where asbestos is being actively removed two stories, two floors down, can be stressful. To me, it was like, here's my chance to figure out. I heard this thing called risk communication. Here's my chance to see if I can do it. And and and for the record, no one trained me, nobody, and there was no internet then. I was just like get my hands on books, like, I wonder how you do this, I wonder how you do that. And man, it to this day, like I tell folks, uh, if something happens to me at Niha, I'm just going back to the field. That's how much I loved and respected the field work. And when I hear folks say, you know, they refer to themselves as an inspector, I'm like, man, you're so much more than that. You are the face of public health and uh fully embrace the potential uh that the profession uh offers you and that you can offer society.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:28

Yeah, the you are the face of public health. It's so true because those are the people out in the field. And in a lot of cases, that would be the only example that anyone knows about if you hear public health or the health department, that's what'll pop into their mind. That person, whether they wanted to be the index you know, billboard for it or not, you're right, they are because they're visible.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

So I mean, this is what drives me crazy. Thank you for for bringing this up. When you think of public health with some limited exceptions, and maybe those limited exceptions have come to the fore since COVID. When you think of public health, what do you think about the grade in the restaurant? Well, guess who did that? The swimming notice at the local beach after a rainstorm? Well, guess guess who put that up? The air quality day? Well, guess who's who's doing that?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

Your septic tank goes on the frets. Who comes out?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Yeah, who comes out, right? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's is my water safe to drink? I mean, it's health part. Who is answering the questions? You know, I've I've used this term before uh with you, and uh I I may have to do it again. I mean, this is an intimate profession.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:40

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:41

We touch the most intimate parts of people's lives, and man, that we we should be respectful of that and embrace it to its fullest.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:50

And also like understand that, of course, because it's intimate, of course, people are gonna have questions and they're gonna care a lot, right? Like you they they might not you might not. Give them the your five minutes. Here's what's going on. Here's what, you know, here's how it is. The pushback isn't them failing to believe you. This is their lives and their children's lives. So a follow-up question or a little apprehension is it's not personal.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

So it's it's not, you know, I learned something really important this year. I mean, really important. Uh I do a lot of I'll say press interviews, but it's not like on CNN or ABC. I I get questions sent to me. And do you know the single most popular one that like has had the most uh foot traffic? Can Cameron, it was on bathwater filters for kids. Seriously. Wow, but it's kids again, it's the kids. Sir, sir. And the message to me was indirectly this is what society, or at least a segment of society, cares about. And for me to build trust with them, I am going to answer their questions about bathwater. I almost didn't respond. And this was in Parents Magazine. I almost didn't respond. I'm like, don't waste my time with questions about bathwater filters. And I'm like, Dave, uh, remember humility. Okay. Somebody's interested in this. And by the way, a lot of people are interested in it. Do I need a bathwater filter? Uh so what's the game?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:27

What's the game theory on that? Because I that's I I I I it missed me that there was that big of a contingent on it. What what's the what's the concern about why they would need it?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:38

I guess water quality in certain areas or so I think for municipal water treatment plants and the water distribution systems. Listen, in the United States, we have some of the safest, most reliable drinking water that comes out of your kitchen tap in the world, in the world. And so, but we love to focus on the exceptions. Flint, Michigan. Okay, okay. We we and I am not minimizing Flint, Michigan. I am not doing that, but by and large, the the water is safe. What it takes as a Flint though to I think reasonably alarm parents, or there could be a local article on PFOS and water. And you you know, it's I I I get it. Uh, I'm now a grandparent. I think I've shared that with you. I wouldn't want to expose my child, my grandson to something that's going to harm him long term. Uh, so I answered the questions as straightforward as I could, recognizing what drove that question was probably bubbled up from conversations that are in CNN and ABC and Fox on water quality issues in individual places around the United States.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:51

Credit to you for actually then for taking it up and doing it because somebody needs to, because uh there's a lot of fear gets generated from a quick two-minute package on CNN. Um and you're right, the Flint thing was objectively terrible, but that's not the average city in the United States. I what really shocked me is I saw some data recently about how many people, though, in parts of the U.S., Appalachia, and there's others out New Mexico and then the West that don't have running water or even indoor plumbing. And the number was actually way higher than if you had to ask me in a trivia quiz, than I would have ever guessed.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

So there's unincorporated parts. So I used to work at Loma Linda University uh School of Public Health in Southern California, and there was a community, like a 20-minute drive from campus that was unincorporated. They didn't have water or trash pickup. To go to that place, it's like, wait a minute, this is 20 minutes from my house. So we we do we do need to remain humble in our assumptions of what how I mean how the rest of the country operates. There is no one United States, there's many United States. It's a big country of 350 million people. We can't generalize, and this is why I like to say environmental health is profoundly local, because it is It is.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:12

It's just like all politics are local, environmental health is local. Um and I think too, like the fact that you go out there and take any question and not be a snob about it. People don't like to people have a fear, I think, uh in certain communities of being like looked down on. And and and probably and for good reason in in from you know past leaders and situations they have felt made less than. And uh what you really embody is no honest question. Even if the science disagrees with you, uh how you handle it and entertain the dialogue, uh people really don't want to be judged, and that insecurity, you break it down with with the I'll go anywhere and answer any question that you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:56

Well, uh listen, I was a university professor for 18 years, and I fell into the camp of if you've got a question, it's not stupid. So I had the privilege of learning that lesson in a classroom. I all I did is take what I learned in the classroom and translated it to the general community.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:13

And there it is true that there's way more stupid answers than there are stupid questions, right? Yeah. Um sometimes it's the answer itself, if the question's asked honestly, you can't like it's yeah, I I just love your position on it. So we are I think a lot of some yeah, a lot of this will get covered. There's a lot of sessions at Nihon. I think it's over 200 and something credit uh continuing education hours that are available, like 253 or some odd. Um maybe we talk a little bit about uh upcoming at at Nihon and kind of what people uh what you're looking forward to, what you what you what you think people should maybe make a note of, mental or otherwise, to uh to check out or go go listen to. You've got a big lineup this year, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:57

We we always have a big lineup, and I I want everyone listening to know we have been obscenely thoughtful about what we're providing at the annual conference this year. I don't care what your angle is within the profession, I believe we have content tailored for you. If you just look at our plenary speakers, we have Michael Osterholm, who is arguably the leading voice on infectious disease in the United States. Uh, he is our opening plenary speaker. Uh, we have Sarah Henderson coming from uh from Canada. Uh Cameron, she is amazing. She's a wild fire smoke expert. And if anyone's listening, and if you're going to be in Kansas City, you don't want to miss that. Her content and its relevance to the public's health will leave you floored. I promise you. Lisa Berger, who is running point on retail food safety for the World Cup in the New England states, is going to be taught. She's going to be talking about her, she got permission from FIFA to describe, uh, and that actually took some arm twisting. I bet it did. It got permission from FIFA to talk about, you know, how to conduct uh an assessment in such a dynamic kind of condition. You know, these large yeah, this is really fun. And then finally, you know, I've been talking a lot about new world screw worms and shogg's disease and uh uh uh and other other uh vector-borne diseases, uh Lyme and others. Uh we have Claudia Regal coming uh to close out the conference. She is the director and she's dynamic uh from New Orleans. She's the New Orleans Center of Excellence and Vector Control, and she'll be closing us out. So as you can see, infectious disease, uh climate change and wildfire smoke, food safety and vector borne, we we have the entire uh landscape covered. And there's one I want I want to be sure to get a plug-in before we go, that is yours truly has put together a session on cybersecurity. Really? Folks, folks, this is this is gonna be a barn burner. Let me tell you, if if you are just simply concerned about fishing kinds of stuff, or bad actors getting into your email, you don't want to miss this. The implications of cybersecurity for the environmental public health profession is profound. It is profound. Imagine the electricity goes out in your city for two days. What is gonna happen? Just think about food safe, retail food. Think about your local grocery store. Think about just in time delivery of chlorine to a water treatment, municipal water treatment plant. Uh, you want me to keep going?

SPEAKER_05 1:14:53

It is the veritable, like horror movie nightmare scenario.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

Okay, so so uh as I understand it, and this okay, I I don't know this firsthand. I'm parroting what I I've been told by a reliable source. About 80%, that's 8-0, 80% of the water treat municipal water treatment systems in the United States have been compromised by governments outside the US.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:20

Wow, like like like China hacking and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

I didn't mention a country.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:25

Okay, sorry, I'm not again. I follow that the media talks about it all the time. Power plants, too, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

I think uh sir. I okay, so I don't want to be accused of hyperbole in in this podcast. Uh, but the source was reliable. Let's just say a pretty large fraction of the drinking water in this country is in the hands of people outside the country. And what does that mean if they decide to uh activate on ill intent for us? We need to be ready for that. You talked earlier in this about looking around the corner. That's exactly what the Nehigh AEC is doing. It's like, what do you need to know to be effective for the thing that's coming around the corner? Not to alarm you, but to have a very practical understanding of the risk and what we can do together to mitigate that uh as we move forward.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:17

That is I made a note of it because I don't want to miss that. Because I, you know, I I hadn't heard about water systems. And it's a lot of other countries, so I wasn't trying to paint words in your mouth on any one, but uh including like over from the European side of the world, but I didn't I hadn't thought about the water systems. So a lot of ink has been used on like the embedded in the power grid and things like that. In some ways, the water is almost, if not more, terrifying because you basically could then poison an entire population, couldn't you?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:50

It's it is scary. The the last thing I'll mention is, and this gets back to what I was saying earlier about speaking to people who don't agree with you. We are, and you all can boo me if you want, we have invited the food freedom voice, the voices of food freedom, into our conference to have a conversation with them about food safety. These are the folks that may be pro-raw milk, these are the folks that want to uh uh practice uh local, let's say, customs related to food and to sell food at farmers markets without any regulatory oversight. So I'll just call them the food for food freedom movement. We are not going to debate them, but we are going to provide a forum so that our constituents can understand what their position is. And I promise the food freedom people we would not attack them. That's not the point. The point is to have an exchange of ideas. And many years ago, I had a restaurant grading session that was standing room only, where we had the National Restaurant Association and Terry Williams from LA County exchange perspectives on restaurant grading. Uh, this is going to be the same thing, except for food freedom. And so I am practicing what I'm preaching. I'm bringing people who disagree with us into our conference so they have an opportunity to speak to an audience that may not understand their perspectives.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:23

That's amazing. Uh, because also by just shutting them out and shunning them, it doesn't, they don't go, they're not gonna go away. So actually sitting down and talking, especially for the audience at Niha, to whether they agree with it or not, at least say, okay, that's how they got there.

unknown 1:18:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:42

Wow bingos. So I just I I hope that gives you a sense of how we've thought about the conference this year. It's gonna be dynamic. We have plenty of time to meet with uh HS GovTech. We want uh folks like yourselves to have plenty of time to interact uh with our audience. Uh, we want folks that attend to have time to socialize with one another. We have a really fun social event planned, and we're so glad, Cameron, that you folks are gonna be there.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:10

I'm really looking forward to it. And shameless plug, we're actually gonna have the podcast set up again. So you are in demand uh there, but if you find five minutes, stop by and say hi. And and maybe we can uh maybe you could talk a little bit more because you don't want I don't want you to tip off the the great session you're planning on cybersecurity, but if you get a chance, drop by when we're there and we'd love to learn more. Also, if those are being any of those sessions are being videoed, um, you know, maybe we should have a conversation at some point about whether or not it would make sense to have like a special section and and and put those out on the channel for for the community that doesn't make it there. That's like there's five things I wrote down there that I'm gonna make sure to be at. And I'm gonna have to tell our people that I might be a little scarcer at the booth this year because I've got a I I really want to see yours and the wildfire, because in Canada they have really I mean Western US too, but Canada's really that that one's exciting because they've dealt with a lot of that. And I mean, heck, the fires from the last couple of years have brought orange skies down into the United States. So I that's gonna be fascinating to learn about the impact of the smoke.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:20

Yeah, it's it's uh and Sarah is a wonderful person. Talk about a humble uh professional uh and hopefully you'll get some uh one-on-one time with her.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:30

That would be great. I'd I a couple of these people, I'd love to be able to even get 10 minutes with them while we're there on site to to record because this is it's really exciting. I know I've held you, uh, we're going into a weekend here when we're recording, so I know I've held you for longer than we scheduled, but it always happens that way when we talk. And even at a conference, if we are like, let's catch up for 10 minutes, 20 later, you're and it's your watch because you I've made you behind. But thank you for doing this. Is there anything that we should have brought up or talked about that we haven't?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:01

Uh thank you, Cameron, and thank HS GovTech for being such an important partner uh to the environmental public health profession. As I travel around the country, and you know that I do, uh, there's one common thread that I think is keeping a lot of boats afloat, and that is HS GovTech's commitment uh to the profession and you showing up. Someone was regaling me with a story that they thought you had taken a red eye in to their meeting, and yet you showed up. And you know what? What that said to me, it spoke volumes about your commitment to the profession. And I'd like to end by saying thank you.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:41

That it's really touching. I I I would I'll do it every conference season. Uh I I generally will not turn down uh an invitation, it's it's an honor. And I love the community, love these people. So thank you for saying that. Because it's nice, it's it's always you you probably relate to this. It's it's nice to know that people know you're trying hard. And so thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:03

And they know that for the record. They they know that, and through osmosis, I know it too.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:10

Well, that's you're the a friend of this show, and I thank you for all that you're doing, and we will see you in just a couple weeks at Kansas City. We'll put all the details, register, register if you haven't, go. If you can't get a plane ticket, drive. But you're just a good conference.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

We have a virtual uh option for for registration. I know a lot of associations have stopped doing that. We understand in the current era that a lot of individuals can't travel out of state. Does it make financial sense for us? No, it does not. But we're committed to the profession. And for those folks that can't leave their city or their state because of political reasons, we don't want you to miss out. And so we're biting the bullet and we are making most, not it's not 100%, but most of the programming available to anybody anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:02

This is why you guys are growing and doing big things, because it's not about just the numbers on a spreadsheet. Numbers matter, but you put you put your money where your mouth is, and people can smell a hypocrite a mile away, and that's not what you've got going on at Dihad. So thank you for all that you all are doing, and we're looking forward to a really great conference and hopefully catching up with each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:24

I I look forward to that, and I'll be sure to stop by. Uh, although you need to promise me uh your listeners aren't tired of hearing me babble on.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:32

Oh no, they're not. They're not. I think I don't know if any of them have said to you they've heard it, but a lot of them have said to me, love this or that in the conversation. I know they're not just saying it to be nice when they then go and spend 20 seconds reciting something that you or another guest talked about. I'm like, okay, no, you're you you really did listen and enjoy it, and you're one of the ones that gets more comments than some. And I mean, all of the guests are great, but thank you. And um, we will have you back for sure if you're willing to do it again in the future.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:02

Well, let's wait for the next insect to come and then we can uh have a reason to get together.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:06

We'll reconvene and get more insight from the dark lord.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

Bye, Cameron.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:12

Thanks, Dr. Dijack.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:14

Travel safe. We'll see you in case anymore. There it is. That's a great way to go. That was so unnecessary. The power of AI. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:27

All right, everybody. That was fun. Dr. Dijack. For all of us here at the Beyond Data Management Podcast, powered and thanks to HSGovTech. I'm Cameron Garrison. We will see you here next week and live in two weeks in Kansas City. See you then.